Bass amp question for bass players

Diminished Triad

New member
From what I can hear when comparing subs on a medium to large sized stage there is a big deep full difference between 15" subs and 18" subs (the latter really dominates). Yet, when it comes to bass speakers, it's not unusual to find bass players preferring, for example, six to eight 10" speakers in a bass cabinet over two 15" bass speakers in a similar size cabinet. Fender, for example, no longer manufactures it's 215 (two 15s") anymore but continues the same bass cabinet line for it's 610 and 810 models (six and eight 10" speakers, respectively).

What do multiple smaller bass speakers offer over 1-2 larger (15 or 18") bass speakers?
Thanks!
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Faster & punchier response & different frequency response, depending on the setup.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I don't really understand the physics behind it, but technically you can get the same low frequency response as a big speaker by using multiple smaller drivers coupled together in the same box.

Phil Jones bass amps are a good example, using many 5" drivers (up to 24 AFAIK) to give full range response.

I guess there are probably a few other factors as well - the "that's the way it's always been done" effect and the "my amp is bigger than your amp" syndrome...
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I think Ampeg started using 10" speakers in their cabinets, because when the cab was tuned correctly, it canceled the fundamental of the note so you only got the harmonics higher than that. It increased clarity while still being firmly in the bass zone of frequencies.
 
Last edited:
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

There's more cone mass in 8 x 10 than 2 x 15. Moves more air.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Standing in front of a Henry the 8th (8x8) at gig volume is like getting a back massage by a sumo wrestler.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I don't really understand the physics behind it, but technically you can get the same low frequency response as a big speaker by using multiple smaller drivers coupled together in the same box.

Not exactly. If you want deep, massive low end, you need a 15 or two. If you want more punch and definition, go with 10's.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

With the caveat that the real deep tones don't develop for about 120ft (give or take).

This is why a lot of bassists go with a combo rig - a 4x10 or 2x12 on top of a 1x15.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

With the caveat that the real deep tones don't develop for about 120ft (give or take).

This is why a lot of bassists go with a combo rig - a 4x10 or 2x12 on top of a 1x15.


I certainly don't see many bass players with 12's. Doesn't seem to be a lot of love there.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I certainly don't see many bass players with 12's. Doesn't seem to be a lot of love there.

Really? Aguilar has built a very solid reputation on 12" speakers, and a very large percentage of their users are touting 12" cabinets in various configurations.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Really? Aguilar has built a very solid reputation on 12" speakers, and a very large percentage of their users are touting 12" cabinets in various configurations.

I see most guys with 10's and 15's, but then I'm into classic rock and blues, so maybe 12's are more popular at venues with other kinds of music.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I certainly don't see many bass players with 12's. Doesn't seem to be a lot of love there.

I have a Bergantino 212 that I'll likely never sell. It's one of the best sounding cabinets I have ever used.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

12's have become much more popular. 10" and 15" used to be the norm but that's not necessarily the case anymore
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

So what's changed? Tastes? Amps? Genres?

A couple of things, really.

The older players that used to carry around 8x10s and the like don't have the backs anymore to do it, and want a smaller cabinet that can still hold its own.

Many of the dedicated bass cabinet builders aren't just throwing a speaker in a box anymore; they're taking the time to make a speaker cabinet that is more efficient and using speakers with a broader range. This is resulting in a 1x12 cabinet that can outperform an older design 4x10.

The modern player wants a more versatile sound that can fit in a variety of musical genres, and is easy enough to transport to and from the gig. With a pair of 1x12 cabinets, you have a couple of options available for various gigs, depending on your situation.
 
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

From what I can hear when comparing subs on a medium to large sized stage there is a big deep full difference between 15" subs and 18" subs (the latter really dominates). Yet, when it comes to bass speakers, it's not unusual to find bass players preferring, for example, six to eight 10" speakers in a bass cabinet over two 15" bass speakers in a similar size cabinet. Fender, for example, no longer manufactures it's 215 (two 15s") anymore but continues the same bass cabinet line for it's 610 and 810 models (six and eight 10" speakers, respectively).

What do multiple smaller bass speakers offer over 1-2 larger (15 or 18") bass speakers?
Thanks!

Response time and power-to-surface area, mostly. A 15" or 18" speaker is a lot of mass for one voice coil to move. Remember that, to maintain a constant acceleration, the required power increases on the square of mass; if the cone is twice as heavy, you need four times the power to drive it at the same amplitude (and that's after all inefficiencies, which in a magnetic inductor like a speaker's voice coil are considerable). All other things being equal, a 15" cone is a little more than twice the surface area of a 10" cone (706 sq in vs 314), so assuming that also translates to double the weight of the cone itself, to make it get up and dance you'd have to feed that speaker's voice coil over 4 times as much power as you would to get similar travel out of a 10.

Now, let's consider a 4x10 cabinet. Each 10 takes 1/4 of the power needed to push the 15 at a similar travel amplitude, but the 10 is only half the surface area; so, for the same power, you can push double the surface area (and thus move double the air) by divvying up the load. The net result, all other things being equal, is a 3dB increase in SPL for the same power. This is borne out by sensitivity ratings; the 15 will average significantly lower SPLs than the 10 across most of the response curve when given a 1W sine wave. Also remember the better response times; 10s are described as feeling "punchier", as they respond better to transient attacks, like in slapstyle. For this reason, they're common in the rigs of jazz and funk players, and even more traditional bassist genres like country, rock etc will use 10s for the efficiency gains.

The downside is bass response. Larger speakers get more dB per watt at low frequencies than smaller speakers do; it's why larger speakers are used for bass in the first place. 15s designed for bass guitar cabs, like the Eminence or Black Widow, will stay closer to their rated sensitivity at much lower frequencies than comparable 10s. The Eminence Legend CB15 has a "shoulder" where it starts bottoming out around 45Hz; the comparable Legend BP102 10" has a similar shoulder much higher, all the way up at 100 Hz. However, it's not all about the fundamental; the 10s will be better at reproducing the higher harmonics making up the bass's tone. From the same response curves, the CB15 starts a falloff around 3kHz that looks like the stock ticker from October 1929; above 5kHz, the response curve looks like noise. The BP102, on the other hand, maintains near-peak sensitivity through 5kHz before starting a gentler falloff, and it remains much more sensitive to higher frequencies all the way to the upper bound of human hearing.

OBM is quite right, however, that cabinet manufacturers are beginning to spend more time tuning the cabinets they load the drivers into; the result is that the 12" "compromise" driver, which trades about 1kHz of peak high-end sensitivity range vs a 10 for an extra 35Hz or so of bass response (and gentler falloff than the 10 as it bottoms out) is becoming popular, as with proper cabinet tuning it's as loud as a 15, with high-end response approaching 10s, for considerably smaller size and less weight than either 1 15 or 4 10s.
 
Last edited:
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

From what I can hear when comparing subs on a medium to large sized stage there is a big deep full difference between 15" subs and 18" subs (the latter really dominates). Yet, when it comes to bass speakers, it's not unusual to find bass players preferring, for example, six to eight 10" speakers in a bass cabinet over two 15" bass speakers in a similar size cabinet. Fender, for example, no longer manufactures it's 215 (two 15s") anymore but continues the same bass cabinet line for it's 610 and 810 models (six and eight 10" speakers, respectively).

What do multiple smaller bass speakers offer over 1-2 larger (15 or 18") bass speakers?
Thanks!

Portability.

My car (old bmw 328i) can haul guitar 412's or bass 210s and 115's alright, BUT....even most 4x10 cabs are out (depth wont fit thru door, 412 slant guitar cab strains it to the absolute max with barely 1" space to drag it in without scraping).

Yeah, maybe laying the front seats flat or backing both as far as they go and going through the front door, I could magick a 410 215 or 118 in somehow, BUT...that wouldnt guarantee I could get it out (geometry is such fun!), ever. And even if it was all good, its something I miiiight attempt if the stuff came my way for free or pennies and I needed to get it to the garage or a practice spot, to park there forever...NOT to be moved in my vehicle ever again.

If I ever bought a 610 810 or 218, it would require me to rent a truck to move it. Which is a pain...also, for others, it tends to have age and credit card requirements, on top of the whole valid local license thing (and maybe even good driver record in some places??) - which makes it impossible for kids, cash only types, dui or warrant for unpaid fines over silly drunken antics types, temporarily visiting or illegal foreigners, etc etc. Also, if youre much smaller than 6'2" me (for guys), or any girl who isnt a powerlifter or endurance freak - you always need help to even budge the darn things. Second floor residence w/o elevator, or apartment building without driveway to the front porch? Forget it, even two people = can still get pretty hairy...roommates or territorial girlfriend/wife & no garage for storage? Forget it all, even 410 - a 210 will cause strife aplenty already, and you really really wouldnt even consider risking anything bigger

Most peoples circumstances and wide deep cabs dont mix. Hence,compromises.
 
Last edited:
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I certainly don't see many bass players with 12's. Doesn't seem to be a lot of love there.

Availability of dedicated 12" bass speakers... Among big widely known high volume firms, only MESA and Carvin have much of anything in that size. Some of the guitar stable work, but advertising for bass designs kept hammering home the Xmax thing and playing up blown speaker stories from old veterans' glory days tall tales (blowing half a cab each gig = bragging rights, makes you sound hardcore). Many bass guys somehow believe they can blow guitar gear just by looking at it funny....though, depending on volume and wattage used, even the cheapest weakest guitar 6's and 8's from noname combos can last with bass, nevermind those huge 13 pound celestion uk guitar 12's from the days of hair and spandex (for which celestion never disclosed the numbers anyway, so the naysayers really got nothing but a new four letter word).

PA 12's ones exist, but flat response might not be your thing, and even if it could be, having to conjure up flavour via speaker sims or complex eq tweaks intimidates some and annoys others. Also - xmax strikes again...some dont realize that if it can handle your bass through the mixer, then it can do your amp's frequencies more directly, in your own cab or combo (note: observe ohms and wattage, may require eq tweaks still to compensate for lack of mic)

Harris and Lemmy's signature sounds are coming off 12's, btw.... Not much info on what speaker models they load these days, though, and stories of what they ran before Thiele & Smalls invented Xmax tend to be contradictory. And, on forums, cause "impossible - been there done that - liar - listen up kid... - ignore him, old timer's done fried his brain back in the 70s" flame wars over xmax.
 
Last edited:
Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Consensus seems to be that since I have a Fender 215 (two 15's) already, adding a 610 or 810 is the way to go (eight 10" speakers)? I use 18" subs as part of our mains so after reading these comments makes more sense why adding a 810 would possibly bring some punch we are missing. Thanks!
 
Back
Top