Bass amp question for bass players

[uOpt]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

My metal model is the "motor to cone surface" ratio.

A 4x10 or 8x10 has a lot more magnetic motor capacity going on to drive and hold a certain amount of paper cone, which is what connects it to the air.

Now, a small motor as long as they have enough power (1x 15) can still make the same amount of noise, but there is much less coupling going on.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Availability of dedicated 12" bass speakers... Among big widely known high volume firms, only MESA and Carvin have much of anything in that size. Some of the guitar stable work, but advertising for bass designs kept hammering home the Xmax thing and playing up blown speaker stories from old veterans' glory days tall tales (blowing half a cab each gig = bragging rights, makes you sound hardcore). Many bass guys somehow believe they can blow guitar gear just by looking at it funny....though, depending on volume and wattage used, even the cheapest weakest guitar 6's and 8's from noname combos can last with bass, nevermind those huge 13 pound celestion uk guitar 12's from the days of hair and spandex (for which celestion never disclosed the numbers anyway, so the naysayers really got nothing but a new four letter word).

PA 12's ones exist, but flat response might not be your thing, and even if it could be, having to conjure up flavour via speaker sims or complex eq tweaks intimidates some and annoys others. Also - xmax strikes again...some dont realize that if it can handle your bass through the mixer, then it can do your amp's frequencies more directly, in your own cab or combo (note: observe ohms and wattage, may require eq tweaks still to compensate for lack of mic)

Harris and Lemmy's signature sounds are coming off 12's, btw.... Not much info on what speaker models they load these days, though, and stories of what they ran before Thiele & Smalls invented Xmax tend to be contradictory. And, on forums, cause "impossible - been there done that - liar - listen up kid... - ignore him, old timer's done fried his brain back in the 70s" flame wars over xmax.

Lots of higher-end companies make bass cabinets with 12 inch speakers. Bergantino has already been mentioned, but they're also available from Aguilar, Eden, Schroeder, Epifani, Audiokinesis, and many others. More recently they've become available from more mainstream companies like GK. In addition you can absolutely use guitar 12s for bass if you really want to, though it may not sound that great. The problem you'll likely run into is power handling, since bass frequencies take much more power to reach the same perceived volume relative to guitar. Cutoff frequency will also likely be a problem. I really like the Eminence Private Jack for guitar, but it's only rated down to 70Hz. Looking at the response graph shows dropoff starting significantly higher; around 140-150Hz. The low-E of a standard-tuned 4 string bass is at 41Hz, putting the first harmonic at 82Hz. With this speaker the first harmonic will be audible, but attenuated by 3-5db (estimate based on the graph). Even a speaker with rather powerful bass like an EVM-12L (which I've heard Steve Harris used) is rather shrill and tinny when used for bass, or at least it was when I tried it.

PA12s are another option and tend to work rather well in my experience. The main caveat here is flatter frequency response as mentioned previously. However this usually isn't a problem as you typically don't want a colored cabinet for bass like you typically would for guitar. A potential issue here (maybe less so for guitar 12s) is XMax. Where XMax really matters for bass and where a lot of companies don't make the grade is farting out. If a speaker is in a box with incorrectly tuned ports and/or the wrong internal volume, it WILL FART OUT before you reach XMax.

Not exactly. If you want deep, massive low end, you need a 15 or two. If you want more punch and definition, go with 10's.

So what's changed? Tastes? Amps? Genres?

I don't know about genres since you see it across so many, but tastes and amps certainly have. You still guys lugging around Ampeg SVTs & 810s, but the days when that was actually necessary are long gone. Thanks to advances in technology you can get a class D head that weighs 10 lbs and puts out 1000W at 4 ohms. Combine that with an efficient & properly ported cabinet or two and you end up with a rig that sounds just as good, just as loud (or louder) at less than half the weight. If you're really adventurous you can try something like this. It may seem like a lot of hype, but I recently acquired a 12/6 cube and I've never heard anything like it.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Our main PA system has 5 subs that use 18" speakers. The bass cabinet itself (now) has two 15" speakers and so after reading the insightful comments above seriously thinking about using the eight 10" speaker cabinet from Fender and hoping that with the five 18" subs used on stage the 810 Fender cabinet would compliment? Maybe try the Fender 810 and to really get the best of all worlds include both the 810 and 215 on stage. The Fender amp/head also goes directly into the mixing board while we would mic up the 810 for a separate sound/EQ, etc.

Thanks for all the info.....

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

It really depends on the speaker. Eminence Delta 10" have huge bottom end (which is nice and tight) with the mid and treble clarity. When you look at the speakers the cones and magnets are huge, bigger than a guitar speaker. They're built totally different with extra range in mind. The 15" session cab I have does also have a horn but there's nothing better than bi-amping with a nice punchy sound through the 2x10 and pure clean low end from the huge woofer.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

if you have a 500 watt bass amp, its pretty hard to find many single 15's that can handle 500 watts, but not difficult to get a 4x10 cabinet that can handle it. 4 coils are also more reliable than one.

The tuning of the cabinet is crucial. Big definition and big bottom end depend on a well tuned cabinet. All bass speaker setups have a certain frequency band where they are strongest and a well ported and tuned cab can let you make the most of what you have and provide a much bigger and wider sound than would otherwise be possible.

Bass is a constantly evolving science and bass players seem a lot more ready to try new setups than guitarists.

The other thing to take in to consideration is that in large venues, the bass is often running thru the FOH system. Given that bass waves are less directional and can travel through obstacles much more easily than treble waves, all that is needed in many situations is a fairly modest cabinet for onstage monitoring. Its amazing how many people are using small lightweight 2x10s and still getting a titanic sound.

A lot of folks in Sydney (and im guessing many other parts of the world) seem to be adopting a 2x12 neodymium setup. nice and light, plenty of surface area and bottom end for days. Not much larger than a 2x10, but more cone surface area than a 1x15. In a well ported cabinet, these sound huge either used as onstage monitoring, or as a standalone 600watt cab doing all the heavy lifting on its own.

2x15s is a pretty old skool setup. Its cool, but you might find that there are more factors at play in getting the punch you are after than just speaker size. There is the resonant frequerncy of the speaker(s), the efficiency of the speaker(s), the resonant frequency of the cabinet including the porting. This is just the tip of the iceberg too.

Its not simply a matter of extra inches. You might find you can get more with less.


....at least that's what i told my girlfriend!

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Thanks!

 

[Adieu]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Lots of higher-end companies make bass cabinets with 12 inch speakers. Bergantino has already been mentioned, but they're also available from Aguilar, Eden, Schroeder, Epifani, Audiokinesis, and many others. More recently they've become available from more mainstream companies like GK. In addition you can absolutely use guitar 12s for bass if you really want to, though it may not sound that great. The problem you'll likely run into is power handling, since bass frequencies take much more power to reach the same perceived volume relative to guitar. Cutoff frequency will also likely be a problem. I really like the Eminence Private Jack for guitar, but it's only rated down to 70Hz. Looking at the response graph shows dropoff starting significantly higher; around 140-150Hz. The low-E of a standard-tuned 4 string bass is at 41Hz, putting the first harmonic at 82Hz. With this speaker the first harmonic will be audible, but attenuated by 3-5db (estimate based on the graph). Even a speaker with rather powerful bass like an EVM-12L (which I've heard Steve Harris used) is rather shrill and tinny when used for bass, or at least it was when I tried it.

PA12s are another option and tend to work rather well in my experience. The main caveat here is flatter frequency response as mentioned previously. However this usually isn't a problem as you typically don't want a colored cabinet for bass like you typically would for guitar. A potential issue here (maybe less so for guitar 12s) is XMax. Where XMax really matters for bass and where a lot of companies don't make the grade is farting out. If a speaker is in a box with incorrectly tuned ports and/or the wrong internal volume, it WILL FART OUT before you reach XMax.




I don't know about genres since you see it across so many, but tastes and amps certainly have. You still guys lugging around Ampeg SVTs & 810s, but the days when that was actually necessary are long gone. Thanks to advances in technology you can get a class D head that weighs 10 lbs and puts out 1000W at 4 ohms. Combine that with an efficient & properly ported cabinet or two and you end up with a rig that sounds just as good, just as loud (or louder) at less than half the weight. If you're really adventurous you can try something like this. It may seem like a lot of hype, but I recently acquired a 12/6 cube and I've never heard anything like it.

Bass 12's only sourcable at boutique companies and from used gear 20 years out of print - sorta what I meant

As to the frequency thing, one little nuance really makes me doubt a few commonly held views: all them tattooed to the nines crabcore and djent and whatnot kids playing downtuned 7-8+ string guitars... Dont they tune to the same notes a lot of the time, and run with hotter pups AND pedals and whatnot boosting up the signal even further before it ever hits the amp, which adds oodles of gain over that? And yet they use guitar cabs just fine. Probably just cuz no one told them that they "couldnt".

 

[dystrust]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Bass 12's only sourcable at boutique companies and from used gear 20 years out of print - sorta what I meant

I apologize for not preparing better; I didn't realize I'd be facing the inquisition. I believe 'used gear 20 years out of print' refers to my mention of GK. The cabinets I was referring to are part of GK's Neo line that are available today. If that's too high-end, 12 inch cabs are also available from the likes of Fender, Ampeg, Markbass, EBS, TC Electronic, & Genz-Benz.

As to the frequency thing, one little nuance really makes me doubt a few commonly held views: all them tattooed to the nines crabcore and djent and whatnot kids playing downtuned 7-8+ string guitars... Dont they tune to the same notes a lot of the time, and run with hotter pups AND pedals and whatnot boosting up the signal even further before it ever hits the amp, which adds oodles of gain over that? And yet they use guitar cabs just fine. Probably just cuz no one told them that they "couldnt".

8 string guitars are typically tuned to F#, a full step above the previously mentioned 4 string bass but this application is different from bass guitar. I'm generalizing here, but a very powerful guitar head like a Mesa Triple Recto or a Diezel Herbert will put out 150-180W. Worst-case this would be run into a single V30 4x12 which can handle 240-280W depending on which source you believe. You're in no danger of blowing speakers here because neither of those amps has enough power on tap to blow a 240W cabinet. A typical bass amp OTOH will produce around 300W minimum; a larger one will be in the 500-1000W range easily enough to destroy the V30 4x12.

Moving onto frequency is where the applications are different. I don't know if you've played an 8 string, but the notes on the low F# are usually felt instead of heard. Extreme metal players are usually fine with this in my experience, and bands like Meshuggah use 8 string guitars in that fashion. Your typical 4-string bassist is NOT ok with only being able to feel notes on their low E instead of being able to clearly tell what they are. This is why bass speakers have lower cutoff frequency and why bassists typically don't use guitar speakers.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I apologize for not preparing better; I didn't realize I'd be facing the inquisition.

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

 

[jtougas]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Nuts, you beat me to it...

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Right!! Our only weapon is FEAR. Fear...and Surprise!!

Wait!! Our TWO weapons are FEAR, SURPRISE, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Wait...

I'll come in again...

 

[dystrust]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Right!! Our only weapon is FEAR. Fear...and Surprise!!

Wait!! Our TWO weapons are FEAR, SURPRISE, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Wait...

I'll come in again...

 

[threechordcharlie]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I'll stick with my 1 18 and 2 10's Black Widow cabinet thank you.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

So what's changed? Tastes? Amps? Genres?

Better PA sound support. It's not unusual for clubs to have higher powered PA systems with multiple bass bins up front. It's been my experience playing in multiple bands as either a guitarist or a bassist that the bassist's own amp/cab setup is pretty much irrelevant. When I played bass all the time it used to irritate me that I had dumped a bunch of money into a kick-ass rig and then the first thing the sound man would do is grab my instrument cable and plug it into a crappy DI box. So for most bassists your own amp/cab is pretty much a stage monitor. Due to that fact of life, I've found that the larger the bassist's cabinet, the worse the overall stage sound is for everyone due to the low end frequencies transferring through the often hollow wooden stage. Things get boomy and muddy real quick. The sound man at our usual gig was giving our bassist so much grief over his amp (a 1x15 combo) that at our last show he just brought his 1x10 35w practice amp and put it on an angled stand (so it was pointed at his head). He heard himself great and we had a way easier time dialing in a good monitor mix. Plus no boominess. The crowd wouldn't know the difference because the FOH mix has the subs going.

So really, the 8x8 or 2x15 "fridge" is severe overkill in most situations and they're very heavy and cumbersome to move. As for my rig, I've got a cab with 2 10's and a single 15 in it and I regret buying it to this day. The thing is awkward and weighs over 80 lbs. It hasn't left my basement for over 6 years.

Also bear in mind that unlike guitarists, bassists generally are not vintage fetishists. They don't want vintage reissues or classic cab designs. They want the latest amps and the lightest, most efficient speakers they can get.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

When I played bass all the time it used to irritate me that I had dumped a bunch of money into a kick-ass rig and then the first thing the sound man would do is grab my instrument cable and plug it into a crappy DI box. So for most bassists your own amp/cab is pretty much a stage monitor.

FWIW in the 1990s I played bass exclusively through a TC2240 and a DBX 160x, then into a PA (usually the XLR out as a DI box) and something for myself to monitor (usually a Roland Cube). Worked like a charm. The only additional thing was that I had an EMG pickup which allowed me to skip the problem of too low input impedance on part of those 19" units which would be an issue for a passive bass.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

I have an 8x10 on order and will let you guys know how it plays/sounds in a while. Thanks!

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

The Fender 8x10 cabinet arrived right before I was leaving the office yesterday. We'll be opening and playing this morning. Thanks everyone for some pretty convincing advice that 8x10 would do more for our bass player than our existing 2x15 - and I should have real feedback by tomorrow. Thanks again!

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Bass amp question for bass players

Less boomy, little more punch,a nice difference. Thanks for the advice!