Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

[biased]

Hello.

I am a beginning guitar player, almost 2 years. I've a few cheap guitars with cheap pups. I am thinking about ordering a warmoth wide neck as I've very large hands and 1 11/16 necks are problematic. I borrowed a classic nylon acoustic, and the 2" neck and the difference is dramatic. I initially thought time and practice would correct things, but now believe I would benefit more by just learning on a little wider neck.

Anyway, I don't have a lot of guitars to borrow to find out what different pups sound like, and most people I know who do play at all just use what came with thier guitar. I've listened to the sound clips from the SD website, but honestly can't tell a huge difference.

So what I was hoping could happen is people might be able to give me a generalization of what might work, as I realize nobody can truly predict exact tone or sound. I like classic rock and blues but also make a point to play some country/jazz/metal as well so that I can become well rounded. At this point, I have read so many "use this combination" threads I am about as confused as I can get lol.

So, maybe something like this would be helpful:

SD XYZ Humbucker seems to be muddy with a lot of gain, maybe not the best for (some music type) but well suited to (another music type). If you want more cleans, the SD ABC might be a better choice but you won't get much (some attribute) usually.

My goal is to get some good quality pups that would be well suited to many types of music as possible, without being "always clean". If I had to lean one way or another I suppose it would be classic rock with moderate distortion and decent cleans. Metal/shred and punk would be the least although I like them well enough.

Its actually a very hard thing to describe what I would want, and I am sure just as hard to describe the sounds as well. But I figure maybe people who have been playing for 20 years would have a better shot at understanding than a wizard and audio clips would.

Thanks to any who might help.

Oh, forgot to mention, I am using a crate solid state amp right now with a couple cheap pedals for distortion. I have progressed to the point that I am saving for a tube amp at some point, but thought getting a quality guitar with quality pickups would be a wise first purchase so that when I buy an amp I can play my instrument and hear it. If that even matters.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Welcome to the forum.

A good place to start would be here. http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/find-your-tone/the_basics/

After that, you are into the realms of the subjective. Even given identical guitars, pickups and amps, my playing style could result in a different guitar sound than your playing style. My idea of sonic heaven could be your idea of crud.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

I will say that i'm one of those people who believe a decent amp can make your sound better then a new guitar and pups would. But yes a decent, easy to play guitar helps tremendously as well.

I would recommend first to get really familiar with your amp and pedal and see if you can get them to sound like you want them to.
I say this because I use a Marshall MGFX which has a notorious reputation as being a bad sounding amp but it really comes down to how you set the EQ for each channel and i'm sure your crate can give you some very usable tones given the right EQ set up.

Second I would see if it may be possible for a luthier to cut you a nut that is 2" that can fit on the neck of your current guitar. If not then go ahead and buy the neck you want with the proper nut.

 

[biased]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Thanks for the welcome.

Yeah, I understand its very subjective, which is why I was hoping for some generalizations. Too bad there isn't a database somewhere listing popular pickup models and peoples own subjective thoughts on what they sound like, etc. At least then you could get a rough idea of what the majority would hear in a pickup, generically speaking.

I understand the amp bit you are talking about. Actually, I have breadboarded a bunch of pedals and amps from various DIY websites, so while not phonic superstars lol, I've had quite a number of different venues to hear my pickups in as it were, in addition to borrowed effects pedals.

What I notice is that one of my guitars has a little more volume, a little more bite and a little more sustain than any other I have played. And it does so on all amps and most effects that don't drastically change the signal. Not so much smooth like a PRS korean SE might be, that santana sound, and not at all like a real strat, but also not too dark or gritty/edgey like some of the budget ibanez I have heard might sound like (these seem born to do something like metal).

I have no way to find out what product might come close. So I guess its no so much about the perfect tone for the perfect style, its this "oh so slightly dirty", with just a hint of a darker tone yet still good clean sounding sound that is able to not be "too much any one thing or another". The guitar itself is a cheap strat style with HxSxH from a pawn shop. The pups are cheap and have nothing to ID them, but they have that sound that fits anything (and everything, a real "jack of all trades") I try so far, better than anything else I have tried (or played). Not sure that even makes sense lol... but its the best way to describe what I am looking for.

As for the nut idea, I don't think that would work. I have a 1 11/16 neck at the nut, so no way to get wider without more meat at the nut... Bad part about buying a wide neck is making darn sure it fits on my current body. Hopefully they have one thats blemished, as I would like to test for cheap before spending hard earned $$.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Scott Olson]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

If you're looking to go from jazz to metal, I would definitely say to start by looking at the JB/Jazz. As for general subjective descriptions of each pickup, you can find that all over the pickup lounge when people ask about a particular pickup. Just sit down for a little bit and use the search function and I'm sure you will find what is right for you.

I'd also recommend going on over to our YouTube channel and our Soundcloud, where you will find many other clips.

http://www.soundcloud.com/seymourduncanpickups/
http://www.youtube.com/seymourduncanchanel/

Let me know if you have any other questions and happy tone hunting!

 

[chadd]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Just about any of the pickups on the market can do what you're asking, I can think of any number of combinations that are capable of meeting your needs. It's a lot easier if you are using a pickup that is a known quantity and giving an indication of what you don't like about it. That makes it much easier to suggest a replacement that you will like. I really like the Jazz neck HN that I have in one of my teles and the APH1 and Demons that I have sound pretty good for what I ask of those guitars. One thing you will find is that as you become a better player and develop your technique and ear, you will be able to get more out of any pickup.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Greetings Biased!

Before we even attempt this, what cheap guitars exactly do you have? And more importantly, what amp/fx?

Then, tell us more of the bands you like, Metal, Jazz, Blues, whatever. Name some names.

And there are description of the pups. Just don't know that we can actually give any super vague generalizations beyond "The Distortion is AWESOEM!" which is not really helpful...

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

no

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

i would not spend any money on pickups until you have an amp that is good enough to make the most of them. At this point in time, you should probably be trying out some amps that will get you closest to the ball park sounds you would like (probably a fender hot rod will get you closest to what you described and is almost impossible to beat in the "bang for buck" category).
Once you have an amp setup that delivers the goods (including the right speaker), then its worth looking at the more subtle stuff that can be achieved with the pickup choices.
welcome to the forum.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

I honestly don't think guitarists should worry about their pickups unless they've been playing for 5 or more years and are extremely OCD about tone. Not trying to sound rude, but you yourself said you can't tell the difference from the sound samples. So then why worry about it at all?

I think I would be a much better guitar player today if I stopped worrying about the electronics in my guitar and focused on the notes I was playing. Get a decent modeling amp that has every type of sound you could want (that is, Fender Mustang) and practice, practice, practice. Notice how you said most people you know who play guitar just use their stock normal pickups? Maybe there's something to that...

Telecaster and Strat single coils can play metal. EMGs can play jazz. The amp and pedals make a way bigger difference than the pickups or the entire guitar, for that matter. Get a Fender Mustang, a Peavey VIP, or just some decent modeling software and start practicing music.

This forum can be a very valuable asset if you know why you need it, but it can be a huge waste of time if you're just ****ing around with guitars.

 

[biased]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Wow. Thanks for the welcome and replies. Where to start....

Cheap guitars I have are a rondo hawk sx SSS, big lou wideneck strat HSH, big lou LP HH and finally something called a Vester which is a strat type with HH and floyd trem. The Rondo was the first I bought, to check out 1 11/16 and singles (I had borrowed a few prior that had HBs). Singles were cheap and neck was small so I ordered a Big Lou strat type. Really like the width on that, so ordered an LP to see which I liked better. The Vester someone gave me, not sure about it really, only a 1 5/8 neck.

The big lou's are not too bad. Much better than some other $300 models I looked at really. Straight necks, frets not dressed but good enough out of the box I guess. Pots all work, finish is decent enough. Really budget guitars, but no real complaints. The pickups I would guess are on the hot side of things based on what I have borrowed. Not a lot, but noticeable.

I started with a borrowed Peavy 10" SS amp, and bought a Crate GX212 for $100 of craiglist. Have played through some Line6 2x12 and Fender 2x12 but never looked at the model, although the Fenders might have been SS as there was a pedal with it (not 3rd party either). The Line6 used an older line6 pedal as well, with not much controls on the pedal, so assume controls were on the cab. Used what looks like a cat5 cable/connector.

I used a Korg Music Tone or something like that for awhile. I think 16 banks 4 channels. Now I use a Line6 PodXT Live (used). I have also built a lot of pedals/amps myself, mainly on breadboard, to test them. A lot from RunOffGroove but some from other DIY sites.

All that to say I am looking for quality, consistent quality. I am not looking for, as I said, some ultimate tone. But when I plug any of my guitars into a given amp, and then hear another guitar in the same amp, there is a difference. Not that one is too treble or bass sounding (although that does happen) but more of a feel of "cheap" compared to "quality". Its hard to describe, but definitaly audible.

Now as to what I like, well, I like all music really. And I would like to play all kinds, both because I like a wide range and because I like to learn. I would lean towards classic rock and blues I guess but some modern rock and country is not far behind. I don't really have a great desire to listen to straight up jazz, but I like to try and play it because it pushes my boundries. Metal I do like perhaps more than jazz, but not all of it and not all the time. Yet I try to learn it because, again, it expands on what I can do.

I have saved enough for a tube amp already. Maybe the $600-800 mark I would go to. And thats the whole reason for looking into pickups really. I guess I assumed that if I am going to drop some cash on a tube amp, I should have some pickups that were "real". I don't think paying more $$ makes them real. I know enough electronic theory to understand what they do. Good parts and designs make good products. Cheap parts and good designs can also make good products. The name of the maker means nothing as most are outsourced anyway. But, consistency is another thing.

So my goal was to try and get some good ideas as to a set of HSH pickups that would be "no fail", as in they will sound good for most any music type. Not every pickup is going to be great at every genre, or else the advertising is completely a farce (which I generally believe ads are anyway). No, I don't want EVH's tone, or gilmours or timmons or vai's. Something capable of any of those within reason but also capable of some Page or Seltzer. Not that it needs to mimic any of these exactly, just have broad capability and sound quality.

Maybe it is all in the amp. I read a lot to learn as much as possible, and practice every day diligently. I am 42 and just like music, not trying to start a band be world famous lol. At this point in my life I've worked hard enough to have a little extra so save for quality things. In years past I had to skimp and buy the cheap stuff. Funny how life works that way, but it does. So now I understand I love to not just listen to music but also to create it. I've played long enough to know it is not a "phase" or "fad" for me. So I am open to anyones opinion. My goals are to simply keep learning and playing, while at some point in the near future, and in some order, obtain a quality wide necked guitar with quality components (electronics etc) and to acquire a quality tube amp, maybe a 15 to 40 watter.

I had assumed right now pickups would be the first step as I could put them in one of my cheap guitars and get the amp next, and hopefully understanding basically what sound I would have. I assumed this order because I have read literally a dozen articles and a thousand opinions that the woods in electric guitar only color the sound, but its the electronics that really dictate it overall. And that would mean pickups and amp.

Sorry this is such a long post. I tend to do that, but its how I best communicate the thoughts I have. I should have been an engineer I've been told throughout my life lol.

Any input welcome IMO. More information means more knowledge to me.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

I have read literally a dozen articles and a thousand opinions that the woods in electric guitar only color the sound, but its the electronics that really dictate it overall. And that would mean pickups and amp.

Don't underestimate the guitar itself.

However, the amp is the most important part of getting the particular signature sound of various electric guitar sounds. The best pickups in the world through a mediocre amp will only every sound mediocre at best. Good pickups can only tailor your sound within the boundaries of what your amp (and guitar) is capable of.

Also, don't obsess too much over gear at this stage in your development. No gear in the world can make you a better player. Any guitar, pickups or amp can only sound as good as the ability of the player. Time spent researching little details will pay you back many times over if you replace it with time spent practicing your instrument.

Music is a great leveller in that respect. It all comes down to your playing chops. You can't buy them, you earn them. Gear is just a tool.

 

[biased]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Don't underestimate the guitar itself.

I did not start out to lol. I don't know which camp is right really (there are so many), still trying to figure that out myself.

However, the amp is the most important part of getting the particular signature sound of various electric guitar sounds. The best pickups in the world through a mediocre amp will only every sound mediocre at best. Good pickups can only tailor your sound within the boundaries of what your amp (and guitar) is capable of.

So I am finding out. I have researched amps for awhile, and played a few when possible. I still have no idea what I am going to get because without having them side by side how can you tell which one you like better. Thats why I said it made sense to get pickups first because at least then I wouldn't be changing them later and possibly have made a different amp choice.

Also, don't obsess too much over gear at this stage in your development. No gear in the world can make you a better player. Any guitar, pickups or amp can only sound as good as the ability of the player. Time spent researching little details will pay you back many times over if you replace it with time spent practicing your instrument.

This november will be 2 years of lessons. I average about 2 hours a day, sometimes much more, rarely none. Sometimes I play something new a lot and get sore fingers (I am 42 not some limber younster ) and have to lighten it up a for a few days. I usually study theory more then or just practice strum patterns or scales or chord shapes. I am a pretty anal person I guess, I obsess over small details (and over-think things). The gear side of things, well, I bought what I bought because I hate wasting hard earned money. Cheap stuff that is meant to let me understand what I really want, hopefully to make a wise decision the first time. Its just the way I spend, always researching to make a wise choise.

So thats where I am now, understanding my cheap guitars have a cheap sound (even if I cannot describe what it is that I notice) and that there are multiple factors involved in getting a sound that is pleasing to me. If I have free time (after practicing and honey-do's) I am researching something on guitars. Or building a stomp-box and listening to how they sound. Or, well pretty much anything musically related. And thats why I decided to post here, to get opinions and advices.

Music is a great leveller in that respect. It all comes down to your playing chops. You can't buy them, you earn them. Gear is just a tool.

Its possibly the longest hobby I will ever have lol. I've had many interests over the years, with computers being the #1 for a long time (think really geeky stuff) but since I started messing with music, it seems to consume me - which is a good thing IMO.

Thanks for the replies. I really do appreciate it when people share what they know.

 

[eviltobz]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

...No gear in the world can make you a better player...

whilst that is mostly true, having the right amp, pups and guitar can make some things just pop, that don't on your shonky old kit. back in the day, when i'd been playing for a few years and was okish, i had a chance to play an evh musicman through a 5150 combo. the intro to mean streets is, in my opinion, one of the most amazing bits of fret mangling ever, but all my attempts to recreate it were a miserable failure, until that day. those crazy tapped harmonics that just farted out of my rig rang out amazingly on that setup (not eddie good mind, but enough to amaze me with the difference). /sigh/ and the next time i was able to recreate that was the day, years later, when i visited a different music shop to test and then buy a 5150 combo. point being, kit won't make you better, but it might uncover some chops you didn't even know you had

...Thats why I said it made sense to get pickups first because at least then I wouldn't be changing them later...

i'd say that pups make sense as the last thing to buy (unless, like me (and many others here no doubt) you're randomly getting a load of stock to mix n match as the mood takes you). as mentioned, the amp is the main contributor to your tone, so getting that sorted is a good plan. the pups have a close connection to your guitar though, so you really need to get the right pups for the axe you're putting em in. when i built my main custom guitar a few years back i trawled the site, listening to all the sound clips, and it was clear to me that the custom custom was the pup i needed. the demos were using a mahogany body, my guitar was mahogany, twas a match made in heaven. til i got it all plugged in and powered on, whereupon i found that she sounded like there was a duvet lying on the speakers. fortunately a bit of time round here introduced me to magnet swapping and hybridisation, so i was able to make some mods that completely changed her into a sweet, howling beast but the gist here is that the pup that i thought i needed, was not what my kit called for. so if you're planning to upgrade your guitar and move the pups with it, their new home may not suit em.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

The amp is definitely the biggest factor in the sound/tone. The pickups is the next biggest (and cheapest). Good pickups can really elevate the performance of a cheap guitar, but...


Cheap guitar + amazing amp = pretty darn good sound!

Amazing guitar + crap amp = crap.

and

Cheap guitar + Duncans + amazing amp = AWESOME WIN!

 

[crguti]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

^ I would add...

amazing guitar + amazing pickups + amazing amp + crappy playing = mega crap.


Tone will come easy when you know how make the guitar sound right.

 

[biased]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Thanks for the infos.

Begins to sound like many would choose an amp first and that pickups have limited effect to overall sound when compared to what the amp starts with. Well, thats why I'm here asking because other peoples experiences do matter. Ask me how to use concentrated sulfuric acid with chemical injectors, and you're going to get an answer on my experience but maybe not how most would do it. Same thing, just have to glean what I can from you who share

My feeling on the matter is similar to eviltobz. With my current setup it sounds ok, some days it grooves some it doesn't. But when I plug into a tube amp or play a guitar that is better than mine (whether pickups or the guitar itself) there is a distinct difference. Sort of like "hey, that sounded pretty good, almost like I know what I'm doing". I've practiced the same riff a hundred times on my equipment, yet never heard it speak to me in the same way - that good sort of way that says you've accomplished something. So for me, its really about inspiration or a guage to tell me all the hard work is paying off.

lol, of course there's always the chance I don't know what the heck I am talking about, but its a pretty awesome feeling to hear something I created sound so good compared to just blah.

I don't know that picking an amp is going to be any easier than a pickup. At least I stand a better chance of hearing them than I do pickups. Does anyone think it would behoove me to start a thread here (or anywhere) with the same sort of diatribe so that I can learn from others? (in other words, is it a waste of time asking about amps)

Again, thanks for taking the time to share.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

Nope theres plenty of people willing to shoot the breeze with you about amps too. So if you feel like it head over to the amp section and start up a thread and have at it.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

jazz to metal? there is no greater combo than the jazz/jb. i use two jazz pups and play a lot of soul/r&b, reggae, blues, hard rock and classic rock. the jb gives you that "these go to 11" edge you'll need for metal leads... in fact the jazz/jb combo is one of seymour's favorite combos

 

[Aceman]

Re: Beginner - possible to generalize pickups characteristics?

As long as we are talking about what Seymour says/does....

I have only ever seen/heard him play a CHEAP SCHECTER...with Seths through whatever killer amp was in the back.

He sounded awesome. Then again, he also has mad chops.