Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

[ratherdashing]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

There's a good reason it's a good idea to get high quality audio cable, but not "high quality" speaker cable: it all comes down to what kind of signal the cable is carrying.

Audio cable (like what we use to connect a guitar to a pedal board, or a pedal to another pedal, and so on) carries a very high impedance signal (tens of thousands of ohms) with extremely low current. Such a weak signal is highly vulnerable to cable capacitance and RF interference. This is why cable quality can and does make a difference, especially on longer runs (>10 feet).

Speaker cable carries a low impedance signal (whatever the rating of the cab is, pretty much always 16 ohms or less) with much higher current. This relatively strong signal (although it is still very weak compared to wall current, for example) has almost zero vulnerability to capacitance and RF interference. This is why plain ol' stranded copper is just fine.

I don't know which "professional audio engineers" you're dealing with, but when we cut our album my head was on a bench beside me, and my cab was in an iso room 40 feet away. Want to take a guess what kind of cable our platinum-album-making engineer used for that? Yep, it was plain 14 gauge stranded copper wire. This was in a studio with mics worth more than my car, and a board worth more than my house. You'd think they'd splurge on speaker cable too, right? Wrong.

But hey, it's your money. If you want to waste it I won't stop you, especially since you seem hell bent on doing so in spite of good advice and common sense.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

I did just have a Marshall 1960 apart and the cable they use for internal wiring is hilarious. It's gotta be 22 awg or something. I'll bet you'd find improvement from that, which may be where all this nonsense gets started.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

I did just have a Marshall 1960 apart and the cable they use for internal wiring is hilarious. It's gotta be 22 awg or something. I'll bet you'd find improvement from that, which may be where all this nonsense gets started.

Yeah, but I sold at a pretty good progit some of that old original real thin Marshall when I put in thicker wire on one of my old 70's Marshall cabinets because people claim its part of the old Marshall sound, plus its original.

Anyay, its plain we have enough evidence to support that theres no benefit to high end cables, but if you all have anything to else add to support the use of more costly high end cable, please let it be known.

BTW..now heres one guys product that seems to provide actual benefits. Take a look at it guys will you please, and comment? I could actually have him make an entire cabinet harness;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170710338619?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Use a lamp cord, preferably by cutting it with metal scissors before you've unplugged it from the wall.

That reminded me of this.

 

[Dirtbagg]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

It seams like every couple of moths we have this discussion about Speaker and guitar cables. with the cheap-o ones at $3 and the high end Monster/ George L cables $50 :smack:

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Somebody mentioned Gilmour. Last I heard, he was using Evidence Audio Siren II for speaker cable. http://www.evidenceaudio.com//product.html

While you're there, you might want to reconsider the concept that Monster Pro is anything other than generic quality cable by trying the Lyric HG with solid core conductors. I don't trust the ears of anyone who says it doesn't make a difference.


Cheers....................................... wahwah

Man that Siren II looks expensive !

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Ya know Jerry it blows me away that you try and justify things the way you do, it also amazes me that you come here, ask for advise and when you get it flip out because you think it's bad or wrong advise...

There is a HUGE difference between signal cable like on your pedal board and a speaker cable...

Come one man, even you're drunk dumb ass should be able to see that.

Just stop trippin on the details of a rig...speaker cable, plywood backs on cabs...9 flippin OD pedals on one board...just give this crap up and play guitar, thats the point anyway!

If you spent half the time playing guitar that you do obsessing on the stupid details or better yet posting about them...then starting poo slinging contests when folks here that don't agree with you oir give you an answer you didn't want you'd be one hell of a guitar player...however I have a strong feeling that you can barely tune the thing much less play it...

 

[Rich_S]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

BTW..now heres one guys product that seems to provide actual benefits. Take a look at it guys will you please, and comment? I could actually have him make an entire cabinet harness;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170710338619?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Well, that stuff he says about multiple small conductors having less inductance than a single large one... that's real. We studied it in college, and it's a concept that's used every day...











IN LONG-DISTANCE POWER TRANSMISSION LINES.

In an 18" long guitar speaker cable? WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP.

Ooooh, it "will also allow opposing conductors to cancel out each other's magnetic fields which can interfere with low voltage instrument and microphone cables". Who runs mic cables through the back of their combo amp? DOUBLE LOAD OF CRAP.

Seriously, if you think custom-ordering a few short pieces of wire soldered togther all the way from ENGLAND will make your cab sound better, have at it, but it's the Emporer's new clothes.

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

On things like this, I believe in doing just enough that I know it's overkill. I don't have to spend a lot, but I know that the wire in the cab drops out of the equation, so to speak.

I upgraded the wire in my 1960A a few years ago. I don't know if it made a tonal improvement, and I don't really care. It was part of a package of maintenance and upgrades that also included replacing a buzzing driver and shoring up some structural elements that either were buzzing or I thought could buzz.

For the wire, I can't even remember what I did. It was one of the audiophile cable manufacturers, just the conductors out of one of their bulk speaker wires. A few dollars, a little time (and I actually enjoy doing this stuff, so it wasn't work for me), and I don't have to think about it any more.

 

[Diego]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Jerry,

In short:
Guitar and pedal cables -> Long cables carrying a weak signal, interference is due, HQ cables are adviced to keep it out.

Speaker wire cables -> Short cables carrying a, in comparison, heavy signal. Interference is non-existant,
and anything rated for the amperage load will give the EXACT SAME RESULT as a higher quality cable because there's no interference to keep away from the signal.

Go and splurge if you want, but higher quality cable won't do **** to improve your sound and I'll be happy to be quoted all day long on this.

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Jerry, if you get some budget audiophile cable that's a few bucks a foot, and connect it very solidly inside the cabinet (I like to hook into the terminals and solder), and if you manage the wire so that it doesn't rattle against anything, you'll be doing about all there is you can do with it.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

^^^^ Okay, but its not like Im going all zoo with this. You've got some very highy rated companies selling this so called ... "Snake oil".

Take a look at the message Kimber Cable sent me today in response to a question about their product in application for guitar cabinets;



Hello Gxxxxx!

Thanks for the e-mail regarding Kimber! It would be perfectly fine to use either 4PR or 4VS inside of the cabinet. In fact there are a couple small manufacturers out there who use 4VS for that exact thing! I think you would be very happy with the results. These companies have found that they like the VS better than the PR for this particular application.

Let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Kimber Support Team



On Oct 13, 2011, at 7:44 AM, GXXXX wrote:

> Form Submitted on: 10/13/2011
>

>
> Description of Problem/Concern:
> Hello. Would it be okay to use Kimber Cable in application for Electric Guitar Full range Speaker cable; that is, for connecting guitar speakers inside a guitar speaker cabinet, and then terminating the wire onto the speaker output jack? I would be looking for an improvement in tone over 16 gauge normally stranded speaker cord..
> I have been thinking of using the 4PR, but would also consider the 4VS if that would be a better option?
> Thanks!

Guys, could you please take a look at Kimbers product description of their recommended for Guitar speaker cabinet application 'Kimber 4VS' and tell me what you think please? Don't get discouraged..were nearly done here, and immense thanks to out technically proficient members for contributing!! ;

http://www.kimber.com/products/loudspeakercables/vs/4/

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

^ I've always been suspicious of braided speaker cables like that. It seems like it would have more capacitance than a type of wire where you could keep positive and negative separate. And capacitance is bad for amplifiers -- that's one reason why you're not supposed to connect a head to a cabinet with an instrument cable.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

^ I've always been suspicious of braided speaker cables like that. It seems like it would have more capacitance than a type of wire where you could keep positive and negative separate. And capacitance is bad for amplifiers -- that's one reason why you're not supposed to connect a head to a cabinet with an instrument cable.

I dont know what this means, but here are the tech specs of the Kimber 4VS;

DUT: 4VS 2.5m bare wire ends.(Cp) parallel capacitance: 340.0 pF @ 20 kHz
(Ls) series inductance: 0.596 µH @ 20 kHz
(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.041 Ω
(Xt) total reactance: 0.075 Ω @ 20 kHz
Frequency response ± 0.5 dB: dc - 250 kHz

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Here's what WikiPud says:

"The voltage on a speaker wire depends on amplifier power; for a 100-watt-per-channel amplifier, the voltage will be about 30 volts RMS. At such voltage, a 1% loss will occur at 3000 ohms or less of capacitive reactance. Therefore, to keep audible (up to 20,000hz) losses below 1%, the total capacitance in the cabling must be kept below about 2700pF.

Ordinary lamp cord has a capacitance of 10-20 pF per foot, plus a few picofarads of stray capacitance, so a 50 foot run (100 total feet of conductor) will have less than 1% capacitive loss in the audible range. Some premium speaker cables have higher capacitance in order to have lower inductance; 100-300 pF is typical, in which case the capacitive loss will exceed 1% for runs longer than about 5 feet (10 feet of conductor)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

Here's what WikiPud says:

"The voltage on a speaker wire depends on amplifier power; for a 100-watt-per-channel amplifier, the voltage will be about 30 volts RMS. At such voltage, a 1% loss will occur at 3000 ohms or less of capacitive reactance. Therefore, to keep audible (up to 20,000hz) losses below 1%, the total capacitance in the cabling must be kept below about 2700pF.

Ordinary lamp cord has a capacitance of 10-20 pF per foot, plus a few picofarads of stray capacitance, so a 50 foot run (100 total feet of conductor) will have less than 1% capacitive loss in the audible range. Some premium speaker cables have higher capacitance in order to have lower inductance; 100-300 pF is typical, in which case the capacitive loss will exceed 1% for runs longer than about 5 feet (10 feet of conductor)."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire

But beyond the specs, isnt this wire engineered by Audiophiles who are also Engineers? Isnt this where we may be missing a HUGE point with these particular cold hard specs?
Read Kimbers description of what the claim their wire will do! You've got to bear in mind Kimber Cable is one of the premier well respected and established giants in the audio world, and their cables are some of the most widely respected of all.
Ron Kimber is a pioneer in Audio concepts and holds a well regarded place for achievement in the Audio world with his speaker cable art/engineering .
SOOOO ..for a Kimber Engineer to write me back and tell me to consider the 4VS for Guitar speaker cabinet application..wellll, thats not an endorsement to be taken lightly.
Again;

"Consisting of four gray and four black conductors that utilize our proven braiding technique. The aggregate wire size is two 13 awg conductors. The VariStrand, Ultra-pure copper conductor used in 4VS shares many similarities with the more advanced TC series cable. 4VS is smooth and refined in the midrange and treble, allowing for hours of fatigue-free performance without sacrificing detail. One of the audio world's finest performance bargains."

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

I see what you're getting at, but I'm still afraid of the capacitance. I'm too lazy to do the calculations and research; I find it easier to pick a high-performance cable with less capacitance. There are probably a dozen or so companies like Kimber who have similar backgrounds and reputations making audiophile cables; they're not the only show in town.

 

[Hellion]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

You seem dead set on spending a lot more money than the majority of opinions that I've read here suggest you should. Do it. But, I'm with the majority. I don't think you're going to have any improvement in your sound whatsoever.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

You seem dead set on spending a lot more money than the majority of opinions that I've read here suggest you should. Do it. But, I'm with the majority. I don't think you're going to have any improvement in your sound whatsoever.

Thanks for bumping my thread. Ive got an idea. If i can ggrab 30-50 g-feet fo the Kimber, Id be willing to send it to a few guys here to rewire a 1x12 or 2x12 cabinet. You could keep the cable, with the proviso you youtube the results before and after? Would taht be cool?

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Best Speaker Cabinet Wire?

My thoughts go like this : how many pedals do you have between the guitar and amp ? Now, suppose you lose 1% of your signal at each jack plug/socket connection. You could easily be losing ten per cent of your precious signal before it even gets into the amp. With a bunch of pedals, you could be losing twenty per cent.

and what quality of wire do you have inside your guitar ? How good are the solder joints ? How old are the solder joints (because they deteriorate with age).

Then you have to think about every component and every solder joint inside the amp. And the transformers. The quality of the tube pin connections in the tube sockets. Then the quality of the output plugs and sockets. And the solder joints.

So audiophile speaker wire is not going to make much difference when all the stuff i mention comes before the speaker wiring and is more critical.

Besides all of that, guitar amps partly sound the way we like due to some audio imperfections, like the mismatch in the phase inverter circuits and output transformer windings for example. Make a guitar amp too 'audiophile-friendly' and it may well lose some of the characteristics guitar players love about them.


Might be worth thinking about anyway.