Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

[Guitar Toad]

What musical scales beyond the usual major and minor pentatonic scales do you think that a young, aspiring player should know?

A while ago someone mentioned the natural harmonic scale as a means to avoid sounding like everyone else. Is it the scales that make you sound like everyone else or do you believe it's more of a creativity issue of finding a way to use the same old scales in new ways?

What about this natural harmonic scale? Or Please suggest another scale alternative to the usual major minor stuff.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Ocifer]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I'd say learn the modes. That really helped me get different sounds out of my playing. Having said that, it's all about how you use the scales. There's no point in knowing tons of them if you can't use them creatively. Try different finger positions, different right hand picking techniques, different dynamics.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I had thought that modes might be the next step for me.

Creativity. Ain't that the truth!? I just have to learn how to be creative and inventive. That's really the kicker.

Finding my own voice with guitar is so tough to do. Most of what I try to create sounds like its been done before.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Pentitonics can actually be very versatile if you know how to use them. I have a book somewhere that explained how to use all 12 major pentitonics to get farther outside harmonically. They were listed from inside to outside harmonically. If you use the key of C major the Cmajor pentitonic is obviously the most inside and the C# major pentitonic played over C major was the most outside. The Eb major pentitonic (starting on the majors b3 tone) and the Gb major (starting on the majors b5 tone) played over C major both have some cool outside tones. Once you get a grasp of using the pents chromatically over a given key and mixing them up to create interest, you'll definately sound different that the other guys.

 

[danglybanger]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Alright... I don't really understand pentatonics. For some reason I decided to teach myself the major scale first, and it sounds good to solo in it over most things.

Why is omitting 2 note from that useful?

As for doing things modally... the fact that each of the modes is actually a major scale aids me in soloing over anything not in a major scale Basically I can't think modally, and don't understand doing so.

slade

 

[tone4days]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

my former teacher, and friend, carl filipiak (www.carlfilipiak.com) has a video (DVD?) out called 'use what you know' (or something along those lines) ... i remember from my lessons with him how he tought how to take the pentatonic things (major and minor) that most (not mincer ) guitarists (ab)use and apply them interestingly to expand the phrases in our 'vocabulary' ... might want to check that out ...

as for modes, i think a pitfall (that i am still climbing out of) for many guitarists is too overthink them as just alternate ways to play the major scales they already know ... for years, i thought that noodling around all the C major scale forms i had memorized and practiced connecting against the progression ||: Dm7 - Em7 - FM7 - Em7 :|| meant i was playing D dorian ... in a very pedestrian sense, i suppose i was ... but until i started deconstructing it and seeing D Dorian as its own thing, only coincidently having the same notes as C major, was i finally able to begin to employ it musically (albeit it haltingly and clumsily) ... it's a subtle point when you read it like this ... but it really matters .. i mean, if i was blazing along all my memorized A minor licks against that chord progression, it sounded like i was playing A minor, Not D Dorian - even though they are all the same notes ...

so, frank gambale's 'modes - no more mysteries' video (dvd?) is excellent for getting some modes under your belt ... the problem for me (and its probably just me) is that the gambale tape is really intimidating because of the blinding speed he plays with (sweep picking rules!) ... but the concepts are really well presented ...

good luck
t4d

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Pentitonics can actually be very versatile if you know how to use them. I have a book somewhere that explained how to use all 12 major pentitonics to get farther outside harmonically. They were listed from inside to outside harmonically. If you use the key of C major the Cmajor pentitonic is obviously the most inside and the C# major pentitonic played over C major was the most outside. The Eb major pentitonic (starting on the majors b3 tone) and the Gb major (starting on the majors b5 tone) played over C major both have some cool outside tones. Once you get a grasp of using the pents chromatically over a given key and mixing them up to create interest, you'll definately sound different that the other guys.

This is where I am. I know the pentatonics in the most basic sense, it's the figuring out how to use them. Robert, do you recall the name of that book?

Learning how to superimpose one pentatonic over another is my need.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

my former teacher, and friend, carl filipiak (www.carlfilipiak.com) has a video (DVD?) out called 'use what you know' (or something along those lines) ... i remember from my lessons with him how he tought how to take the pentatonic things (major and minor) that most (not mincer ) guitarists (ab)use and apply them interestingly to expand the phrases in our 'vocabulary' ... might want to check that out ...

as for modes, i think a pitfall (that i am still climbing out of) for many guitarists is too overthink them as just alternate ways to play the major scales they already know ... for years, i thought that noodling around all the C major scale forms i had memorized and practiced connecting against the progression ||: Dm7 - Em7 - FM7 - Em7 :|| meant i was playing D dorian ... in a very pedestrian sense, i suppose i was ... but until i started deconstructing it and seeing D Dorian as its own thing, only coincidently having the same notes as C major, was i finally able to begin to employ it musically (albeit it haltingly and clumsily) ... it's a subtle point when you read it like this ... but it really matters .. i mean, if i was blazing along all my memorized A minor licks against that chord progression, it sounded like i was playing A minor, Not D Dorian - even though they are all the same notes ...

so, frank gambale's 'modes - no more mysteries' video (dvd?) is excellent for getting some modes under your belt ... the problem for me (and its probably just me) is that the gambale tape is really intimidating because of the blinding speed he plays with (sweep picking rules!) ... but the concepts are really well presented ...

good luck
t4d

Bill, I need to check out the resources that you offered. I need to discover what you have figured out. I think that I understand the modes concept, it's using them correctly and creatively that I need to work on.

Thanks for the great help.

Edit: Let me ask about chord construction in the minor pentatonic.

In the major scale a chord is formed from the 1,3 and 5th tones of the scale for the major chord in the given key, right? Then, add a major 7th for the fifth chord.

In the minor pentatonic, the how are chords constructed? Is it 1,3, 5 again? I typically use the minor chords and throw in a minor 7th and a purple haze chord occasionally. The one trouble I have for example is that the open Em chord, 022000, doesn't fit the Am scale. What am I getting wrong on this?

 

[tone4days]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

... Edit: Let me ask about chord construction in the minor pentatonic.

In the major scale a chord is formed from the 1,3 and 5th tones of the scale for the major chord in the given key, right? Then, add a major 7th for the fifth chord.

In the minor pentatonic, the how are chords constructed? Is it 1,3, 5 again? I typically use the minor chords and throw in a minor 7th and a purple haze chord occasionally. The one trouble I have for example is that the open Em chord, 022000, doesn't fit the Am scale. What am I getting wrong on this?

hmmm, sorry friend .. i cant help you there ... i do not conceive of chords as being constructed from anything other than the notes of the major key ... i use all my chords 'spellings' starting on the root

so i think of a major chord as a 1-3-5 and a minor chord as a 1-b3-5, etc .... a major 7th chord is 1-3-5-7 and a dominant 7th chord is 1-3-5-b7 and a minor 7th chord is 1-b3-5-b7

so starting with the notes in the key of C, we get:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

C major chord = 1-3-5 = C-E-G
C minor chord = 1-b3-5 = C-Eb-G
C Major 7th chord = 1-3-5-7 = C-E-G-B
C dominant 7th chord = 1-3-5-b7 = C-E-G-Bb
C minor 7th chord = 1-b3-5-b7 = C-Eb-G-Bb

now, expanding this to start to consider modes, we can see that D Dorian as it relates to the key of D Major:

D Dorian notes = D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
D Major notes = D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D

So we see that the dorain mode has a flat 3 and flat 7 as compared to the major scale of the same root ... this might be why one sometimes hears the dorian mode referred to as the minor 7th scale (but not by me )

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

In the major scale a chord is formed from the 1,3 and 5th tones of the scale for the major chord in the given key, right? Then, add a major 7th for the fifth chord.

What exactly do you mean for the "fifth chord"? Do you mean a chord based on the fifth scale degree? (In the key of C, G-B-D)

In the minor pentatonic, the how are chords constructed? Is it 1,3, 5 again? I typically use the minor chords and throw in a minor 7th and a purple haze chord occasionally. The one trouble I have for example is that the open Em chord, 022000, doesn't fit the Am scale. What am I getting wrong on this?

A minor key is the Aeolian mode of the equivalent major key.
Ex.
Key of C... The relative minor key to C is Am.

A B C D E F G (A)

You still construct chords based on the 1-3-5 scale degrees. So in Am the scale degrees are A-C-E. the chord based on the 4th scale degree is D-F-A. and based off the fifth scale degree it's E-G-B. you can add a 7th on any of these:
A-C-E-G (Am7)
D-F-A-C (Dm7)
E-G-B-D (Em7)

Cool?

On to the variations on Minor scales. The standard minor (Natural Minor) scale beginning on A is:
A B C D E F G (A)

The Harmonic Minor scale based on the same key is:
A B C D E F G# (A)
This raises the 7 to a #7. This is a really cool scale.

The Melodic Minor scale is an interesting one. You "raise" the 6th and 7th scale degrees on the way up, and lower them on the way down:
A B C D E F# G# (A) , A G F E D C B A.
The upper half of the scale is basically major on the way up, but minor coming down.

This theory is all based on strict classical theory, and the kind of music that we play tends to blur the lines between classical theory and "other". Take for example the standard blues progression of C7, F7, G7. There is no way to construct that progression from a sctrictly classical standpoint. It's nearly there (C, F, G7) but there is a little alteration to make them all dominant 7 chords.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

What exactly do you mean for the "fifth chord"? Do you mean a chord based on the fifth scale degree? (In the key of C, G-B-D)


A minor key is the Aeolian mode of the equivalent major key.
Ex.
Key of C... The relative minor key to C is Am.

A B C D E F G (A)

You still construct chords based on the 1-3-5 scale degrees. So in Am the scale degrees are A-C-E. the chord based on the 4th scale degree is D-F-A. and based off the fifth scale degree it's E-G-B. you can add a 7th on any of these:
A-C-E-G (Am7)
D-F-A-C (Dm7)
E-G-B-D (Em7)

Cool?

This is what I was thinking...In the key of G for example the most use chords especially in rock are the, G, C, and D7 or should it be Dmaj7? but often times the 7th gets dropped off. Which actually, those would be called the I, IV and V chords of the major scale?

You provided some great info, let me digest it for a bit.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

In the key of G for example the most use chords especially in rock are the, G, C, and D7 or should it be Dmaj7? but often times the 7th gets dropped off. Which actually, those would be called the I, IV and V chords of the major scale?

Ah yes, it should be G, C, D7. If you spell out the G major scale starting on D, you get:
D E F# G A B C D

And D-F#-A-C is a D7 chord.

Thos would still technically be the I, IV, V7 (The V would be just D, not D7, but I think you've got it. )

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Ah yes, it should be G, C, D7. If you spell out the G major scale starting on D, you get:
D E F# G A B C D

And D-F#-A-C is a D7 chord.

Thos would still technically be the I, IV, V7 (The V would be just D, not D7, but I think you've got it. )

Thanks for the help. I hear guys talking about blending and mixing scales together. Such as playing in a major scale and throwing in an occasional b3 note. Would you say that really is all there is to it? knowing when to use the b3 note?

I'm gonna have to process this natural harmonic stuff. Great info. It looks really good.

I just feel like I need more notes to work with than the pentatonic scales. But, if I figure out how to do what Robert S, T4D, and PF Darkside have given me, then I'll be in really good shape.

I think I can do this. Thanks again.

Edit: Circle of 5ths? Is this the tool you use for tying together the equivalent major and minor scales and modes?

 

[tone4days]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

yeah, i know robben ford (and numerous others) talk about substituting the 6 in place of the b7 when playing a minor pentatonic scale for a 'sweeter' sound ... i've messed with it some, but need to get more choruses under my belt before feeling really comfortable with it and make it sound hip under my fingers

normal minor pentatonic = 1-b3-4-5-b7
sweetened 'uptown' minor pentatonic = 1-b3-4-5-6

i'm also assuming you know to add the b5 to the minor pentatonic sclae to get the 'blues' scale .. those three chromatic notes in a row (4-b5-5) can really get alot of those classic (cliche?) blues licks happenin' ...

have you worked with the straight major and minor scales much? ... finding the ways to use all 8 notes creatively opens up a world of phrases over just the 5 notes of the major and minor pentatonic ...

to start seeing / thinking about them in a jazzier context, unwrap the scale and restack it ...

instead of C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, think of it as C-E-G-B-D-F-A (same notes, rearranged order)

so we have the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th ... these might start to look at bit familiar from chord voicings like C9, or C13 , etc ... those jazz voicings become not much more than 'follow the directions' ... if it is C7#9, then just play the C7th chord and add a raised 9 .. (this is the 'jimi hendrix chord' in the key of C) .. if it it Cmin7b5, then play the C minor 7th and lower the 5th ... being a bear of very little brain myself, this 'paint by number' approach to chord spelling becomes a bit easier when reduced to a formula or recipe

it also helps to remember that when you run out of strings or fingers (or both) that it is ok to omit some of the notes ... thats what bassists and keyboard playes are for

good luck
t4d

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

yeah, i know robben ford (and numerous others) talk about substituting the 6 in place of the b7 when playing a minor pentatonic scale for a 'sweeter' sound ... i've messed with it some, but need to get more choruses under my belt before feeling really comfortable with it

have you worked with the straight major and minor scales much? ... finding the ways to use all 8 notes creatively opens up a world of phrases over just the 5 notes of the major and minor pentatonic ...

good luck
t4d

straight major scales yes. Straight minor scale no. I've only really been working with the pentatonics.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Edit: Circle of 5ths? Is this the tool you use for tying together the equivalent major and minor scales and modes?

To find the relative minor key to a major key, go to the 6th scale degree.

A is the 6th scale degree of C, so Aminor is the relative minor to C major.

To find the relative major key of a minor key, look at the third scale degree

G is the third scale degree of the E minor scale.

-----------------------------------------------------
The circle of fifths is useful for determining how many sharps/flats there are in a key. I memorized this a long time ago playing instruments where knowing key signatures is essential. On guitar, it's alot easier to fudge this since it can be played as a "shape" instrument.

If you know you are in the key of G major (one sharp) and you go to D major, you are going one step around the circle of fifths and add one sharp.


One thing to keep in mind with this is that if you are playing a standard I IV V blues/rock progression you don't switch keys to play over the IV chord. The key of the song is still the same so you still play in that key. (You can almost think of it as playing in a mode of that key)

 

[Rainmaker]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Vault?

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

What musical scales beyond the usual major and minor pentatonic scales do you think that a young, aspiring player should know?

A while ago someone mentioned the natural harmonic scale as a means to avoid sounding like everyone else. Is it the scales that make you sound like everyone else or do you believe it's more of a creativity issue of finding a way to use the same old scales in new ways?

What about this natural harmonic scale? Or Please suggest another scale alternative to the usual major minor stuff.

Thanks for your help.

Hey Todd, All of the folks here are giving you a wealth of knowledge to consider. The only thing I will add is try to superimpose the major & minor pentatonic scales on top of each other and visualize it on your fingerboard. There is a ton of different flavors within these two scales and you will start playing different sounding things on no time.....Joe

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Hey Todd, All of the folks here are giving you a wealth of knowledge to consider. The only thing I will add is try to superimpose the major & minor pentatonic scales on top of each other and visualize it on your fingerboard. There is a ton of different flavors within these two scales and you will start playing different sounding things on no time.....Joe

Joe,
yes, this is some terrific information.

You know, one of the things that's messin' with me is...in a thread a couple weeks ago someone said to forget about the boxes. Simply learn what the boxes represent. The boxes represent modes/positions within a scale. Rather learn the sounds/tones of the scales so that you can play by feel....the only way that I really know to do this is to practice, practice, practice to that point where it becomes second nature.

Thanks for your help Joe.

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Joe,
yes, this is some terrific information. You know, one of the things that's messin' with me is in a thread a couple weeks ago someone said to forget about the boxes. Simply learn what the boxes represent. The boxes represent modes/positions within a scale. Rather learn the sounds/tones of the scales so that you can play by feel....the only way that I really know to do this is to practice, practice, practice to that point where it becomes second nature.

Superimposing major and minor on top of each other? You mean superimposing the related minor over and major and visa versa, right? Like Robert and PFD have said?

Thanks for your help Joe.

For example, take the A major petatonic at the 5th fret and superimpose the A minor pentatonic at the 5th fret and use both scales to give you new lick ideas and passing tones etc. Add some bends and you have a good foundation for a lot of licks in the blues, country, and rockabilly vein.