Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

For example, take the A major petatonic at the 5th fret and superimpose the A minor pentatonic at the 5th fret and use both scales to give you new lick ideas and passing tones etc. Add some bends and you have a good foundation for a lot of licks in the blues, country, and rockabilly vein.

So thats where those so-called passing tones and grace tones come from! great. Thanks Joe, I'll try it.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

diminished chords? Seafoamer talks sometimes about the dimished chord. Do you guys use the diminished chords often? The fingering of the dimished chord feels a bit unnatural. I need to practice it more I'm sure it is also a valuable tool.

In terms of scales can you compare/contrast guys like John Lee Hooker and SRV, with guys like George Lynch and Joe Satriani? Does anyone, in the rock world use the full major or minor scales, not simply the pentatonics of each?

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

diminished chords? Seafoamer talks sometimes about the dimished chord. Do you guys use the diminished chords often? The fingering of the dimished chord feels a bit unnatural. I need to practice it more I'm sure it is also a valuable tool.

In terms of scales can you compare/contrast guys like John Lee Hooker and SRV, with guys like George Lynch and Joe Satriani? Does anyone, in the rock world use the full major or minor scales, not simply the pentatonics of each?

I use diminished chords in blues turnarounds and such. SRV used all kinds of scales as does most players.Some players are known for the flavor of scale they use such as...........

Carlos Santana - Dorian
Satch - Lydian
Yngwie - Harmonic Minor

I try not to think of scales when I'm playing......I just try to let it "happen". I hope I helped a little. My best advice is to try not to overanalyze your playing............practice, rehearse, learn, but most of all have fun. :banana:

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I try not to think of scales when I'm playing......I just try to let it "happen". I hope I helped a little. My best advice is to try not to overanalyze your playing............practice, rehearse, learn, but most of all have fun. :banana:

Therein lies the difficulty. I am more of the scientific, analytical sort more than artist and creative. I'm having to force myself to be artistic and creative.

Learning how to "let it happen". It's a somewhat unnatural and a forced activity....but i'll get in done.

The positive encouragement that I get here helps greatly.

 

[seafoamer]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

One of the purest ways to think & hear 'Diminished', is to play consecutive minor 3rd intervals all over the neck (finger every 4th fret).
You'll start hearing & seeing things.
You'll figure out that there are really only 3 diminished chords in existance.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

One of the purest ways to think & hear 'Diminished', is to play consecutive minor 3rd intervals all over the neck (finger every 4th fret).
You'll start hearing & seeing things.
You'll figure out that there are really only 3 diminished chords in existance.

That will be a great exercise. Thanks 'foamy.

 

[Bob Zombie]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I just learned the scales and modes by their sound and then applied it to what sound I wanted to make. From there things just connected for me. If you're more the "cram it into your brain" type then maybe you could try playing through the scales and listen for their differences and their similarities. Thats kind of how I became accustomed to scales and modes that were the next step for me. After pentatonics I went straight to the Natural/Harmonic/Melodic Minor scales. Also dont be afraid to throw in some chromatic passing tones here and there. Once I figured out it wasn't against any rules it really helped me get more interesting and unique sounds.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I just learned the scales and modes by their sound and then applied it to what sound I wanted to make. From there things just connected for me. If you're more the "cram it into your brain" type then maybe you could try playing through the scales and listen for their differences and their similarities. Thats kind of how I became accustomed to scales and modes that were the next step for me. After pentatonics I went straight to the Natural/Harmonic/Melodic Minor scales. Also dont be afraid to throw in some chromatic passing tones here and there. Once I figured out it wasn't against any rules it really helped me get more interesting and unique sounds.

Being the musical tyro that I am...if I may be very pedantic for clarification. Definition- Passing tones are tones that aren't in the scale or mode that you are playing in, but they may be "borrowed" to add flavor. I've heard this "passing tones" jargon before...I think I'm finally getting it.

Is this what it means when guys say "don't get restricted to box playing"? I had been confused by some Clapton tabbs, I think of him as a blues player, but he doesn't strictly use the minor pentatonic blues. He uses other notes...passing notes.

What would be great is a thread that analyzes a players style in terms of scales, mode and note selection SRV, Clapton, Jimi, Billy G, Buddy Guy? That would be totally awesome...

Do Hal Leonard's books do this?

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Modes were mentioned earlier and most of the discussion was around the tonality of that mode as opposed to the major-

But I mainly use modes a different way..as a substitute fingering for the major, or pentonic at a certain area of the fret board- Once I understood this I became an almost entirely modal player, but when people describe my playing they usually end up with blues-

Here's how I think it through- If I am playing Ablues, the min pent maps directly over the C major, so I can start with all of those notes plus the chromatics discussed above. So if I start of with my hand in the classic position starting at the fith fret, and want to move up the neck, there are 2 modal fingerings that quickly move me up the neck, the lydian (underlying the F much like the major sat under the C) and then the mixolydian underling the G much as teh major sat under the C- Of course there is one note different in each of those fingerings if I dont want to add notes outside of the key, but once I got that in the brain this became the easiest way for me to look at practically any scale-
This is far more confusing sounding than in practice and opened up pents in ways I had never considered before-
Good thread keep it coming!

 

[ES350]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Really---learn all that stuff, and then forget it. It's like building a house out of hammers...it's the tool, not the music. When I hear somebody playing scales, I look for the nearest door out of there...

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Really---learn all that stuff, and then forget it.

Nicely stated. I'll try to do that...

Zionstrat, that is great stuff you offered. I'm gonna have to write it out on paper, then transfer it to my fretboard. This stuff isn't automatic for me yet, but I'll get there.

You guys are helping me figure out how to see and think differently about putting this stuff (scales and modes) together into action. I have stuff to advance beyond my current position. Thanks.

EDIT: Do you guys know any sites with your can print off blank horizontal fretboard diagrams?

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Really---learn all that stuff, and then forget it. It's like building a house out of hammers...it's the tool, not the music. When I hear somebody playing scales, I look for the nearest door out of there...

Agreed, but without the hammer, the house isn't getting built. You just don't need to use the hammer on everything (to beat the analogy to death...lol).

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Apparently I should have titled this thread "teach me how to use the pentatonics and their associated modes" because thats what you guys have done and that's what I needed.

Plus, if I am beginning to get this right, I have discovered that I need to learn the modes in terms of the steps between notes and the name of the modes in the long run will free me from the boxes and lead me to greater freedom in improvising. I am really encouraged about this...thanks again.

ModeMaster.com have you seen this? Great tool.
This is proving to be a good resource as well - Guitar Lesson World

 

[Guitarist]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Theory is exhilarating, isn't it?

 

[Guitarist]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

PS...I don't know where I got this, but it's also a helpful tool.

http://www.guitarknowledgenet.com/

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Music theory is a funny thing, and almost pointless when it comes to playing popular music. Theory will never replace a great set of ears or supercede the ability to translate the sounds in your head or your gut into musical expression and bring out feelings and emotions in the listener.

Theory is the attempt to label, catagorize and explain the relationships between notes, especially when many notes are played simultaniously or in long strings. Mostly theory is an organized way for those who understand musical structure to explain it to those that don't.

I have taken college level theory classes and I understand enough to make sense out of most classical and jazz pieces. Much of the stuff I learned to pass the tests I don't use in everyday life and I never make my students learn latin. The application of some basic concepts and the application of theory in laymans terms is far more useful to my students. You don't have to know everything about music theory to be a successful guitar player but knowing nothing isn't the best road to follow either. Too much theory on the brain makes for stiff playing and it stifles creativity in writing at times because some of the coolest sounding stuff breaks the "rules" (rigidity) but having no understanding of theory makes for slowed development as a player and musician.

Etudes, scales, modes, interval studies and the like aren't nessessarily learned so that they may be played and players that rely on too many scales or arpeggios often sound boring and redundant. The point of these excersizes is train your hands, train your ears and to master the neck completely between the nut and the last fret. They force you to play in positions you wouldn't normally play in and this increases your grasp of the instrument. The more you know, the more intuitive your playing becomes.

I read a quote from a jazz player once who tried to explain what improvisation was. He stated that improv was part inspiration and part knowledge. As your grasp of the instrument improves, you think less and emote more. Basically you learn a whole bunch of stuff to the point that you no longer have to think about it, you stir it all up and then you grab little pieces of it and throw it out there. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes the "mistakes" turn into something very cool and musical.

SRV didn't look at his playing and say, "wow that was a cool use of the lydian" and the Beatles didn't know what a half cadence or a leading tone was but they had the ears to use them. We use those terms to understand what they did after the fact.

A little book learnin never hurt anyone and I'll never believe that ignorance is a useful tool. It may be blissful but it's never useful.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

Can you recommend some instructive pentatonic etudes, scales, modes, or interval studies?

 

[EvanAsh8]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I think one good way to practice may be to take a solo you already know and change little parts of it to see how it sounds. I completely understand where you're coming from as far as learning. You hear everyone say "just play with feeling", but I like to know why something works or why it doesn't. Maybe take a solo you're familiar with and make it your own by changing little phrasings here and there. Just learn by trial and error I guess. I saw where you mentioned you'd like to know about different people's style and I had a little piece of advice on that too. If you're trying to learn how to mix major and minor penatonics look at Clapton's first solo on "Crossroads." He starts out with exclusively major scale notes and then gradually arrives at the minor scale, but of course some more major scale notes are scattered in there as well. It really helped me to differentiate the sounds and uses for each scale. Hope this helps.

 

[drpietrzak]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

If I felt I had masterd the penta's I would worry more. It seems to me there is so much to learn with them I am not sure it is ever really over.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Beyond Major and Minor Penatonics

I think one good way to practice may be to take a solo you already know and change little parts of it to see how it sounds. I completely understand where you're coming from as far as learning. You hear everyone say "just play with feeling", but I like to know why something works or why it doesn't. Maybe take a solo you're familiar with and make it your own by changing little phrasings here and there. Just learn by trial and error I guess. I saw where you mentioned you'd like to know about different people's style and I had a little piece of advice on that too. If you're trying to learn how to mix major and minor penatonics look at Clapton's first solo on "Crossroads." He starts out with exclusively major scale notes and then gradually arrives at the minor scale, but of course some more major scale notes are scattered in there as well. It really helped me to differentiate the sounds and uses for each scale. Hope this helps.

Funny, that is the exact solo the began messing with me. I was so zoomed in on the blues scales and in Crossroads he does both major and minor penatonic. I need to look at that solo again more closely.

Modes were mentioned earlier and most of the discussion was around the tonality of that mode as opposed to the major-

But I mainly use modes a different way..as a substitute fingering for the major, or pentonic at a certain area of the fret board- Once I understood this I became an almost entirely modal player, but when people describe my playing they usually end up with blues-

Here's how I think it through- If I am playing Ablues, the min pent maps directly over the C major, so I can start with all of those notes plus the chromatics discussed above. So if I start of with my hand in the classic position starting at the fith fret, and want to move up the neck, there are 2 modal fingerings that quickly move me up the neck, the lydian (underlying the F much like the major sat under the C) and then the mixolydian underling the G much as teh major sat under the C- Of course there is one note different in each of those fingerings if I dont want to add notes outside of the key, but once I got that in the brain this became the easiest way for me to look at practically any scale-
This is far more confusing sounding than in practice and opened up pents in ways I had never considered before-
Good thread keep it coming!

zionstrat I read through this too quickly the first time. The error in my thinking, since I was so zoomed in on pentatonics, when you said lydian and mixolydian, I was thinking that I need to find the lydian and mixolydian modes of the Am pent scale and the blues scales. But, your talking about superimposing the modes of the major scale over the Am pent scales. You were explicit, but I was myopically focused on the Am blues scale.
I read most of this stuff too quickly from work. Now that I have a day off and can look at it with a little more patience, it is making more sense to me. If nothing else I have clearly displayed that I know very little theory wise...but I'm gaining ground.

You guys are great.

Edit: I could go back and clean up some of my goofiness, but it gives you a better idea of where I am and where I need to go.