Blackface vs Silverface

[GandLMan]

Guys,

So, longterm Im looking at buying an amp. I want a fender clean tone, and be able to do a smoother overdrive when hit with the Fulldrive. I play a range of styles ranging from needing a Saturated blues tone all the way to a jazzy clean tone. Ive heard blackface vibroverbs\vibrolux's are the way to go. What would you guys recommend in either a 1x12 or 2x12 config? 20-50 watts.

Are Blackface era amps generally smoother than Silverface? What about Deluxe Reverbs?

Ty

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Tweeds over them both

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

lol, any recommendations of guys to play?

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

BF defently, much more pleasant to the ear and blends well.

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

So any BF would be good to play? Any particular models? Or is it pretty much just finding a wattage\speaker config that works for me? Is that pretty much the main difference between say . . .a Deluxe reverb and a vibroverb? different wattage and speaker config but essentially a similar tone?

Ty

 

[Stratman]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Deluxe is better for playing "MIKED" at clubs. Vibroverb is LOUD - You will not need to use the PA. Tone similar, but not really exactly the same.

I am a firm believer that you do not need any thing more than 40Watts if you want to keep playing at clubs.

100Watt Marshalls, Mesa Boogies, etc are just too loud to keep the bartender happy!

 

[gripweed]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Tweeds over them both

It depends on what you want. The tweeds are a more *marshally* type of sound.

In *some* cases the differences between BF and SF have been overemphasized because they are essentially the same circuit. The Champs for example, are exactly the same circuit. We can argue over types of caps and speakers, whcih do affect the tone (i.e how they are voiced), but *some* are exactly the same circuit.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

I am a firm believer that you do not need any thing more than 40Watts if you want to keep playing at clubs.

100Watt Marshalls, Mesa Boogies, etc are just too loud to keep the bartender happy!

A 100w amp is, at best, less than 20% louder than a 40w amp (that's not taking the 'breakup point' and 'headroom' into consideration).

Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, a 20w Deluxe can be too loud for a lot of rooms- if you're looking to get a crunchy overdrive sound out of it.

Get the amp you want, whether it be 5w, 18w, 45w, 85w, 120w- get a good attenuator and let the amp do it's work, let the attenuator be the volume control.

 

[nepalnt21]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

bump... im interested also in the differences. thiking about getting a bandmaster but im not sure i want the tweed version.

 

[Bludave]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

The question is sliver vrs. Blackface.

Fender switched to the SF sometime in 1967. There are some 76 amps that have BF and some that have SF. From what I can gather about the early SF amps (1967 thru 1969 I think) The only thing that is different is the face plate. In later models there were some circuit differences made also. The main thing I would recommend staying away from are the Master volume SF. Any SF without a Master should sound comparable to a 66 or 67 BF.

The Deluxe Reverb is one of the best small amps ever made. At 22 watts it is very loud and quite articulate. The major shortcomings to this fine amp is its lack of headroom and its inability to hold the bottom once they get cranked.

The Pro Reverb is a better choice for larger rooms It is essentially half a twin. About 40 watts with 2 12" speakers. My limited experience with these is they tend to be bright.

The Vibrolux and Vibroverb. Both are also rated at 40 watts, but the circuits of these amps are quite different from each other and from the pro. The primary difference between the Vibrolux and the Vibroverb is the Verb has 1 15" speaker (Althouh it was available with 2 10 in certain eras). and the Vibrolux has 2 10" speakers. I used to own a 66 vibrolux and it was a killer amp. Not as good as my Super Reverb but a very solid amp.

Super Reverbs IMO are one of the best all around Fenders. The 4 10" speakers move a lot more air than most of the others and because of the 4 10" th bottom is really solid. A great versatile amp. You can go from clean to hard rock very well if desired and they all take pedals well. If you play a small room it may be necessary to use an OD pedal with the Super(mainly to keep the volume under control)

Twin Reverb. The loudest cleanest amp I have ever used. IMO it is just too loud for most situations. 4 6l6 power tubes pump a lot(85) of watts thru those 2 12" speakers. If volume and clean is what you are after..... it will be hard to beat a Twin!

This is just a quick overview of some of the more widely used and desireable Fenders and some general info. If you want more info. Go here.
http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/

 

[saladin]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

I never had problems getting great tones out of the MV SF Twin and Super that I used to have. Just keep the master at 10 and adjust the volume to taste!

 

[ES350]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Of all the common BF/SF models, I ended up with a '68 Pro Reverb; good balance of power and weight, plenty of headroom for most situations, not too big, not too small. My fave 'faux' BF amp right now is a '65 Bandmaster head in a Rodgers 3x10" cab---the amp that never was for 1/3 the money of a Super Reverb.

 

[nepalnt21]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Of all the common BF/SF models, I ended up with a '68 Pro Reverb; good balance of power and weight, plenty of headroom for most situations, not too big, not too small. My fave 'faux' BF amp right now is a '65 Bandmaster head in a Rodgers 3x10" cab---the amp that never was for 1/3 the money of a Super Reverb.

so how does the bandmaster compare? the only reason i was looking in that direction was because i need a head version of a great sounding fender amp. dont want to haul around a 2x12 all the time, up and down stairs and into my car. but i definately dont want to sacrifice tone. are there any other suggestion?

o crap i jsut realized this isnt my thread, o well sorry for the hijacking. i dont efven think gandlman comes around here anymore.

 

[spuds]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

The question is sliver vrs. Blackface.
The main thing I would recommend staying away from are the Master volume SF. Any SF without a Master should sound comparable to a 66 or 67 BF.

Why are the master volume SF's worse? I've heard that many times but never got to find out the reason.

I've got an old Super Six Reverb that sounds amazing (MV SF)... so I'm wondering what I'm missing out on. Hahaha.

 

[Kelsey]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

AFAIK, some of the MV SF amps aren't much different from their older NMV SF brothers, if you don't use the MV. But I think some of the MV amps included some changes besides the MV that affect the sound (e.g., in the transformers and other specs). The best place to start sorting through the specs is the Fender Amp Field Guide, as noted above.

There are still many good deals to be had in SF Fenders, but most of the BF Fenders are pretty pricey now. In some cases, the tweeds and browns are cheaper than their BF siblings -- in those cases, I'd definitely go tweed or brown, as I lean in that direction anyway.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Why are the master volume SF's worse? I've heard that many times but never got to find out the reason.

I've got an old Super Six Reverb that sounds amazing (MV SF)... so I'm wondering what I'm missing out on. Hahaha.

Because it's a horrible master volume design...just doesn't sound good or give you the overdrive that you're really looking for.

Also, Fender switched to output transformers on many of the master volume amps that simply don't sound as good. The 100 watt Twin is not as warm and round sounding as the 60's 80 watt version, IMO.

I like the lower output tranny's better.

IMO, the best buy on Fender amps are the '73 and '74 year amps. They are silverface but they sound good!

I really like the '73 and '74 Super Reverbs.

All silverface Fenders from the 70's need to be "blackfaced"....that means rebuilding the bias circuit so the bias can be set properly when you change output tubes. That is a MUST!!!

Lew

 

[spuds]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Cool, thanks for the info Lew.
I've realised that my amp is a bit on the bright side and lacks a bit of depth... but I love it none the less. Haha.

But I guess I won't really know till I get to play through a NMV... or a blackface.

So what are current day fender amps like now?

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

A lot of great points in this thread, good job guys!

Blackface amps generally breakup quicker than Silverface amps. You may want to keep that in mind depending on what is more important to you. My Silverface Vibrolux Reverb has pretty good headroom, but the stock speakers gave it a mushy bottom, now with G10L-35s, it keeps together very well. Since mine dates back to August 1970, it doesn't have a master volume on it and it's towards that blackface era transitional phase.

One of these days, I'll get my Vibrolux Reverb redone the right way completely recapped, retubed and try that bias dealie Lew mentioned

 

[ES350]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

so how does the bandmaster compare? the only reason i was looking in that direction was because i need a head version of a great sounding fender amp. dont want to haul around a 2x12 all the time, up and down stairs and into my car. but i definately dont want to sacrifice tone. are there any other suggestion?

umm, the BF BM heads are getting expensive with all the Vibrodrone people snapping them up. They are also pretty wimpy for a 35 watt amp with the stock OT's (they need a little work and a few parts to give it up). Maybe a SF Bandmaster Reverb---all the options, a little beefier sounding, a little cheaper...don't let the 70's MV or UL models scare you off. They can sound very good with a few BF era mods or some tinkering with the NFB.

 

[Bludave]

Re: Blackface vs Silverface

Why are the master volume SF's worse? I've heard that many times but never got to find out the reason.

I've got an old Super Six Reverb that sounds amazing (MV SF)... so I'm wondering what I'm missing out on. Hahaha.

Play thru a non master BF or SF years are 64 thru 69. You will hear the difference. The circuits were completely redesigned when they added the MV and IMHO changed the voice of the amps in the wrong way. These amps STILL sound really good, but when you a/b them with a real BF or SF there is a world of difference. Its the same thing with the RI SR, DR and Twin. These amps sound really good.................... until you a/b them with the real deal. When you consider the difference in $ I completely understand why so many people buy the RI stuff and for the most part they sound very good. I feel that way so much that when the guitar player I play with was looking for a new amp I suggested he get the DRRI. For me I have a SF SR that I have had for over 15 years and will NEVER sell it. about a year ago I bought a 67 Deluxe Reverb (1st issue SF) and same thing it sounds awesome..... a lot more articulate than a RI. I paid just a little more for the DR than what a RI would have cost. IMO save a little more and make the investment in a great amp!