Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

A secondary blade disadvantage is that the overwhelming majority of blade pickups I've seen, the blade is far more narrow than the head of the typical 5/40 fillister screw head, which means a less beefy tone. On the other hand, that may not necessarily be a bad thing since most blade pickups are high output models and the narrowness of the blades may act as something of a mud-governor, especially on neck pickups.

Disagree, see below.

I just installed some DiMarzio BC-1 and BC-2 (which are slightly hotter Air Norton S and Tone Zone S) pickups in a Strat, and I was shocked by how open and full-humbucker-ish they sound, especially compared to SD's single coil sized PAF's, the Little 59 and variants, so it might be true, but I don't think it's a genuine shortcoming of rails, at least not in practical terms. In fact, I'm planning to rewire the controls to allow for variable splitting in order to dial back some of the "beef".

I've had those pups on my main strat for a while now, and I can fully agree that they have a very full sound. They have a fuller sound than my SD hb's on my explorer! The best part is, on clean, they do not de-strat your strat. You can still get the quack if you so desire.

What do you mean by variable splitting?
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

You miss my point. I'm not saying they can't sound full, they just don't sound AS full as they would with a wider blade or a traditional pole screw. And if you are replacing a traditional +/-6k Strat pu with one of these single-sized buckers, it would have to sound fuller because there are two sets of poles instead of just one to see a bigger piece of the string, and it's wound significantly hotter.

Also if you recall my last paragraph I also made it clear that it is not necessarily a bad thing. If your blade pickup already sounds full, then having it sound fuller still might make it muddy.

Disagree, see below.



I've had those pups on my main strat for a while now, and I can fully agree that they have a very full sound. They have a fuller sound than my SD hb's on my explorer! The best part is, on clean, they do not de-strat your strat. You can still get the quack if you so desire. What do you mean by variable splitting?
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

I've had those pups on my main strat for a while now, and I can fully agree that they have a very full sound. They have a fuller sound than my SD hb's on my explorer! The best part is, on clean, they do not de-strat your strat. You can still get the quack if you so desire.

What do you mean by variable splitting?

Variable splitting is also called the "roll a split" mod, here's a video on it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5QrV1eoHZk , but basically it's the same as standard splitting, except instead of going straight to ground, you put a pot in between so that you can vary how much signal you dump to ground. With the BC-1 and BC-2, the split mode sounds amazing, but it's extremely different from the full sound, so I want to do the variable split to access the ocean of tone in between. Another option if you think split is too weak is to just put a resistor with a fixed value in between the split point and ground, like a value of 20k, for example, should produce an in-between split/humbucker sound.

I'll let you know how this goes, though, I'm going to get a three gang pot and try variable splitting all three humbuckers with a single dial. I think this could also be made to work with a standard pot and a super switch, but my Fender Aerodynes can accommodate a super switch due to their height, so that's not an option for me.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

You miss my point. I'm not saying they can't sound full, they just don't sound AS full as they would with a wider blade or a traditional pole screw. And if you are replacing a traditional +/-6k Strat pu with one of these single-sized buckers, it would have to sound fuller because there are two sets of poles instead of just one to see a bigger piece of the string, and it's wound significantly hotter.

Also if you recall my last paragraph I also made it clear that it is not necessarily a bad thing. If your blade pickup already sounds full, then having it sound fuller still might make it muddy.

I think you meant to reply to me since you countered my points. I read what you wrote, and I'm saying the BC-1/BC-2 is so outrageously fat sounding that it would never be accused of lacking fatness, or taming muddy tone. There's not so much as a hint of tameness to their output and tone.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

"Absolute betters" do not exist in the arts of sound engineering, sound design or luthiery. There are preferences for certain tones, and means to get there.

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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces


Again, "absolute better"=same result for less cost.

See again about more and less efficient ways to accomplish the same thing, especially with cost pressures on the music industry. If you want a certain sound, chances are you're going for the cheapest means to get there. You don't buy a wall of amps anymore. You use a plugin, a Kemper, or an Axe FX.

Well off hobbyists may not care, and this fact may hurt some people's feelings as far as the art and craft of going down the tubes for the sake of cost savings, but it's where we are as an industry.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Again, "absolute better"=same result for less cost.

See again about more and less efficient ways to accomplish the same thing, especially with cost pressures on the music industry. If you want a certain sound, chances are you're going for the cheapest means to get there. You don't buy a wall of amps anymore. You use a plugin, a Kemper, or an Axe FX.

Well off hobbyists may not care, and this fact may hurt some people's feelings as far as the art and craft of going down the tubes for the sake of cost savings, but it's where we are as an industry.

A kemper or Axe FX is the cheapest means?

but also how do rails equal the same result? Other than both can be used in pickups i didnt know that the cost of slugs and screws were killing people. If you have the 2k to dump on a kemper you got the 200 to buy a handful of pickups
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

"A kemper or Axe FX is the cheapest means?"

Yes sir, relative to a wall of amps with matching cabs, with nice tubes and rebiased hot.

You could easily spend at least $2000 on a used boutique amp or a new Marshall.

"but also how do rails equal the same result?"

They're more modular than traditional pole pieces and that's a plus for people like me who are always moving pups around and experimenting. See above where I said that, for my purposes, this modularity was more useful than a traditional pole piece pup's supposedly improved tone because the number of variables regarding the screws, alloys, etc., quickly became too complex.

There may be no accounting for taste, but when cost pressures come into it, hard decisions must be made.
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Plus the cost of screws and slugs are a factor when people are comparing items that are sold in bulk or when pickups go into mass produced guitars. Economy of scale.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

"A kemper or Axe FX is the cheapest means?"

Yes sir, relative to a wall of NOS amps with matching cabs, with nice tubes and rebiased hot.

You could easily spend at least $2000 on a used boutique amp or a new Marshall.

"but also how do rails equal the same result?"

They're more modular than traditional pole pieces and that's a plus for people like me who are always moving pups around and experimenting. See above where I said that, for my purposes, this modularity was more useful than a traditional pole piece pup's supposedly improved tone because the number of variables regarding the screws, alloys, etc., quickly became too complex.

There may be no accounting for taste, but when cost pressures come into it, hard decisions must be made.

Before you said "A particular sound" meaning one. Not dozens I dont know of anyone that buys a wall of amps to get one tone. Even then your set up with a Kemper is still far more expensive than a few pickups. If your making an overall budget a few pickups is a drop in the bucket compared to you AxeFx set up. If that extra couple hundred bucks breaks you you need to settle for something less.

Rails are only more modular in some instances. If your a guy with modern gibsons and floyd guitars then Fspaced pickups will suit you fine and the extra supposed modularity is moot. There is a reason that you dont hear a huge cry for this.

Hard decisions? You mean like the silliness from buying 1 rail pickup and then swapping it into all your guitars?
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

"Not dozens I dont know of anyone that buys a wall of amps to get one tone."

Not one tone--many tones--for recording. Why spend $2k on one amp when you can have dozens of amps in one piece of technology?

"Even then your set up with a Kemper is still far more expensive than a few pickups."

I wasn't comparing the Kemper to pickups, but other amps. There's a difference in investing in pickups vs. investing in the rest of the signal chain. Personally, I prefer a pickup that colors the tone less so that the signal chain does most of the work. This is probably why I like the Full Shred so much but find popular pickups like the JB to be muddy and displeasing. It's hard to remove a pickup's effect on tone, whereas the signal chain can be dialed out to a greater extent.

"If your a guy with modern gibsons and floyd guitars then Fspaced pickups will suit you fine"

I don't own modern Gibsons, and most of the Gibson copies I have seen (like my Hamer Scarab) use G spaced tune o matics.

"You mean like the silliness from buying 1 rail pickup and then swapping it into all your guitars?"

It takes more time, but it means you don't have a box of unused pickups you can't sell.

Also, $2k is several dozen convincing amp emulations vs. a single budget custom shop guitar or USA mass produced model.
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

OMG, I really can't believe all of your ridiculous rationalizations.

As I see it, it all comes down to this...You are a guy who can't be bothered with fine tuning your instruments' tone. You want simplicity at the expense of variety. Give me ONE pup that I can slam into all of my guitars and that doesn't need any adjustments (plug and play).

I don't know why you can't just be honest and straight forward and just admit that you like simple pups and don't want to have to adjust them. We can accept that...that's just what you like. It's OK. You don't need to try to justify your feelings or try to convince anyone else that you are right and they are wrong.

Admittedly, sometimes it is true that one person can be "right" and everyone else can be "wrong", but that is rare, and in your case it certainly isn't true at all.

My recommendation is...just give it a rest.

(OK, now that I've said that, I'm waiting for the reply/backlash).
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

"A kemper or Axe FX is the cheapest means?"

Yes sir, relative to a wall of amps with matching cabs, with nice tubes and rebiased hot.

You could easily spend at least $2000 on a used boutique amp or a new Marshall.

"but also how do rails equal the same result?"

They're more modular than traditional pole pieces and that's a plus for people like me who are always moving pups around and experimenting. See above where I said that, for my purposes, this modularity was more useful than a traditional pole piece pup's supposedly improved tone because the number of variables regarding the screws, alloys, etc., quickly became too complex.

There may be no accounting for taste, but when cost pressures come into it, hard decisions must be made.

You do realize that their is more to live sound than just the guitar amp and cab? Once the sound man mics up the cab or connects you axe fx or kemper to the board he further alters the EQ for what will be running through the monitors and out to the crowd. Also the Axe FX isn't the cheapest means of amplification compared to a head and cab set up. It may be simpler to use than the racks from the 80s but it's still not a simple piece of equipment.

Also if the PA equipment isn't up to par than no matter how good the amp sounds it will still sound like $hit.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

GuitarDoc, I expected less judgment without merit from you. :(

"As I see it, it all comes down to this...You are a guy who can't be bothered with fine tuning your instruments' tone. You want simplicity at the expense of variety. Give me ONE pup that I can slam into all of my guitars and that doesn't need any adjustments (plug and play)."

If I didn't care about my instruments' tones, I wouldn't be here trying to improve them. I also wouldn't be the one constantly talking about how to get ideal tones with the least (most economical) amount of experimentation. If I didn't care about my tone, I wouldn't experiment.

I often spend hours adjusting my pickups, pots, and caps. I try the same pickup in multiple guitars. I routinely (every few months) move pickups around to different guitars to add variety. I rebias my amps hot with JJ tubes. All of these things are unnecessary, but I do them to improve my tone. I have spent 100 hours or more on problematic song mixes.

My OP came from my experience with adjusting pole pieces for hours and how little this seemed to affect the tone, in my experience. I didn't see much merit in the poles vs. blades *if the poles made as little difference as they did in my case.*

So I thought to myself, "You know, these poles are kind of worthless if I'm going for balanced string volume and not for something wildly colored." The only time I did adjust the poles was slightly on my Distortion when the G, B, and E strings weren't ringing out nicely in stacked power chords (5th, root, 5th, octave, etc.). But even that was slight, since the Distortion tends to be fizzy and clarity is not its strong suit.

I also did not adjust the screws on my Gibson PAFs. String balance was even more important with them since their tone is far clearer than the Distortion's.

Some may say I don't know what good tone is because I'm a metal guy, not like many people in the guitar crowd who prefer 50s-70s classic rock. Metal arguably has a simple tone compared to 60s rock, but I also appreciate the good tone of vintage voiced pickups.

Most of the SD pickups that I enjoy are not the metal type pickups like the Distortion and Alt 8 but rather moderate output pickups. One of the greatest fallacies is that a high output pickup is the best metal pickup. IME, most passive SD pickups that I've tried tend to color the tone too much from the outset, with the JB being the worst offender. I tend to like flat voiced pups best and to do my tweaking in the chain, but if the pup can offer something so the chain won't have to, that's even better.

The metal pickups that I do love tend to be active because I find them more consistent and even. That said, I don't think I'll be replacing the nuance of my Full Shreds with Blackouts or EMGs any time soon. Different tools for different uses. I find passive pickups to be far more important in how they affect a player's touch (how hard to dig in, dynamics, harmonics) than in their actual tone.

Also, metal tone can be very complex for those of us deeply into the genre, especially as far as saturation. A boosted JCM800 does not sound like a 5150 or a Mesa or an Engl or a Diezel.

"I don't know why you can't just be honest and straight forward and just admit that you like simple pups and don't want to have to adjust them."

Because that's just not true. Almost every passive guitar I have at least splits. I have a Charvel LP copy planned that will have Triple Shots, phase switches, kill switches, and more.

"You do realize that their is more to live sound than just the guitar amp and cab?"

Yes. I also realize that many venues will inevitably sound like garbage because they are on a shoe string budget and that the player cannot rely on the sound man to fix everything. I've played in venues that were nothing more than cellars with a stage. All concrete. Wall reflections everywhere. People complaining because even an $8 cover charge is "too much." Lack of interest in merch and CD sales.

I'd love to have better sound, but because rock and metal bands are playing mostly dives due to lack of crowd turn out and inability to sell records compared to the 80s and 90s, I'm not going to set my expectations high. One is better off to try to address one's tone on the player's end than to expect the venue to invest in soundproofing, better equipment, or a sound guy that knows what he's doing.

As far as the Kemper, one of my former teachers at GIT now plays pop music as a guitarist/producer in China. He used to play Marshalls and Riveras. He tried both an Axe FX II and a Kemper and said that the Kemper has now replaced all of his amps. He's routinely playing for thousands of people (J pop and Chinese pop rock draw big live shows there). If the Kemper is good enough for him it will more than likely be good enough for my modest gigging. He liked the Axe as well, but found it less user friendly and more difficult to set up quickly than the Kemper.

I feel like a lot of the ire directed toward my opinion here is because of tone snob factor: blades are considered n00b pickups. Also, because I question the financial aspects of tone when so many people pride themselves on how much their gear costs. But cost is not quality. When I visited OIART and the Trebas Institute in Toronto and Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro, their recording programs didn't emphasize the gear a person had, but what they were able to do with it. All three program directors told me that most people won't be able to tell the gear you're using to record and that throwing money at gear to improve sound quality was a losing proposition because of the downward pressure on recorded music sales.

In sum: yes, details do make a difference in tone, but more to me than to the listener. I care enough about these details to try different pups, but not enough to disassemble the pups. Some details are more important than others, depending upon the cost needed to go through all the permutations of those details. Music is a business, and cost of the signal chain is important in order to make a profit. Cost of signal chain does not mean quality. The value and flexibility of a $2000 rack unit is rapidly exceeding real amps for both live and studio use, especially as technology progresses. The cost of music production and performance must come down to offset the decreased purchasing of recorded music and demand for lower priced tickets. Those who insist in throwing money after diminishing tonal returns are either independently wealthy or not concerned about turning a profit with their music (serious hobbyists). In light of the above, modifying the actual environment (soundproofing a room, guitar wood) or modifying analog technology (pickups, metal, amp parts) makes less sense when software and modeling can do it more cost effectively and with greater precision.

I don't know what I would have had to do to the pickup to make my JB sound the way I wanted it to, but a high pass filter at 200 hz and some cutting at 300 hz did wonders, and it only took a few seconds. I can't say the same about screws, magnets, etc.
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Lastly, keep in mind how much I respect everyone in here. I ask them questions because I am sure they have tried more gear than me.

That said, if I say I have worked with the screws, and doing so doesn't make much difference to my ears, don't question it. It may not be what you've heard in your experience, but only I know my experience.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Hey Inflames626, I do respect you and I'm pretty sure so do other members like Doc and Edgecrusher. Not that I'm to be anyones spokesman. No need to get upset over a biting remark or two on a web forum 'cause words can't really hurt you unless you let them so.

Now what we've been missing from the start of this discussion are your goals. Your post #55 does give a bit of insight about what you're trying to achieve. This is the important detail that helps define what "better" means in your particular case. Without it, we'd be going in circles, 'cause "you can't build a better PAF with blade polepieces". What I'm trying to say is that there are many blueprints for a guitar pickup, and each of them has its own quirks.

Now to help you a bit, did you try any of Bill & Becky's?
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Thanks vinta9e. No offense taken.

Well, honestly, my OP was about the merit of screws if they didn't make that much difference. People have told me they do make a huge difference in their experience, and screws are vital to the tone. I'm not hearing it, so it's going to come down to taste.

My thinking is if the tone of all or most pickups can be replicated in a blade format, then, for my purposes, a blade is better because I find the screws useless. That was about the only point I was making.

For metal, of the pickups I've tried, the regular Blackouts work fine for me. They have the body, fullness, and attack that metal needs without all the grit that passive ones like the Distortion and Alt. 8 introduce. (Everyone here was talking about how great the Alt 8 sounds--Ola Englund's demo of it showed it to be a very scratchy pickup. I tried it in my signal chain and had the same results as Englund, even with the pickup backed off all the way. I expect the same results from the BWs if/when I try them--scratchy).

My longtime favorites--EMG 81s and Blackouts, as well as the Thomson Blackouts for super low tunings (the mids are voiced higher), are blade pickups, if I understand correctly.

For passives, I've had the most luck with Full Shreds. For a standard tuned Marshall type tone, I'd prefer them to Blackouts.

My friend bought a Dimebucker years ago. I found it okay but again very scratchy in the highs, almost like a presence knob turned up too high. It sounds like they split nicely, though.

I haven't tried a BL USA or a B&B, but from comparison videos I've seen on Youtube, the Duncan seems to have the most lows, the BL USA is in the middle, and the B&B has the most highs.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

GuitarDoc, I expected less judgment without merit from you. :(

"As I see it, it all comes down to this...You are a guy who can't be bothered with fine tuning your instruments' tone. You want simplicity at the expense of variety. Give me ONE pup that I can slam into all of my guitars and that doesn't need any adjustments (plug and play)."

If I didn't care about my instruments' tones, I wouldn't be here trying to improve them. I also wouldn't be the one constantly talking about how to get ideal tones with the least (most economical) amount of experimentation. If I didn't care about my tone, I wouldn't experiment.

I often spend hours adjusting my pickups, pots, and caps. I try the same pickup in multiple guitars. I routinely (every few months) move pickups around to different guitars to add variety. I rebias my amps hot with JJ tubes. All of these things are unnecessary, but I do them to improve my tone. I have spent 100 hours or more on problematic song mixes.

My OP came from my experience with adjusting pole pieces for hours and how little this seemed to affect the tone, in my experience. I didn't see much merit in the poles vs. blades *if the poles made as little difference as they did in my case.*

So I thought to myself, "You know, these poles are kind of worthless if I'm going for balanced string volume and not for something wildly colored." The only time I did adjust the poles was slightly on my Distortion when the G, B, and E strings weren't ringing out nicely in stacked power chords (5th, root, 5th, octave, etc.). But even that was slight, since the Distortion tends to be fizzy and clarity is not its strong suit.

I also did not adjust the screws on my Gibson PAFs. String balance was even more important with them since their tone is far clearer than the Distortion's.

Some may say I don't know what good tone is because I'm a metal guy, not like many people in the guitar crowd who prefer 50s-70s classic rock. Metal arguably has a simple tone compared to 60s rock, but I also appreciate the good tone of vintage voiced pickups.

Most of the SD pickups that I enjoy are not the metal type pickups like the Distortion and Alt 8 but rather moderate output pickups. One of the greatest fallacies is that a high output pickup is the best metal pickup. IME, most passive SD pickups that I've tried tend to color the tone too much from the outset, with the JB being the worst offender. I tend to like flat voiced pups best and to do my tweaking in the chain, but if the pup can offer something so the chain won't have to, that's even better.

The metal pickups that I do love tend to be active because I find them more consistent and even. That said, I don't think I'll be replacing the nuance of my Full Shreds with Blackouts or EMGs any time soon. Different tools for different uses. I find passive pickups to be far more important in how they affect a player's touch (how hard to dig in, dynamics, harmonics) than in their actual tone.

Also, metal tone can be very complex for those of us deeply into the genre, especially as far as saturation. A boosted JCM800 does not sound like a 5150 or a Mesa or an Engl or a Diezel.

"I don't know why you can't just be honest and straight forward and just admit that you like simple pups and don't want to have to adjust them."

Because that's just not true. Almost every passive guitar I have at least splits. I have a Charvel LP copy planned that will have Triple Shots, phase switches, kill switches, and more.

"You do realize that their is more to live sound than just the guitar amp and cab?"

Yes. I also realize that many venues will inevitably sound like garbage because they are on a shoe string budget and that the player cannot rely on the sound man to fix everything. I've played in venues that were nothing more than cellars with a stage. All concrete. Wall reflections everywhere. People complaining because even an $8 cover charge is "too much." Lack of interest in merch and CD sales.

I'd love to have better sound, but because rock and metal bands are playing mostly dives due to lack of crowd turn out and inability to sell records compared to the 80s and 90s, I'm not going to set my expectations high. One is better off to try to address one's tone on the player's end than to expect the venue to invest in soundproofing, better equipment, or a sound guy that knows what he's doing.

As far as the Kemper, one of my former teachers at GIT now plays pop music as a guitarist/producer in China. He used to play Marshalls and Riveras. He tried both an Axe FX II and a Kemper and said that the Kemper has now replaced all of his amps. He's routinely playing for thousands of people (J pop and Chinese pop rock draw big live shows there). If the Kemper is good enough for him it will more than likely be good enough for my modest gigging. He liked the Axe as well, but found it less user friendly and more difficult to set up quickly than the Kemper.

I feel like a lot of the ire directed toward my opinion here is because of tone snob factor: blades are considered n00b pickups. Also, because I question the financial aspects of tone when so many people pride themselves on how much their gear costs. But cost is not quality. When I visited OIART and the Trebas Institute in Toronto and Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro, their recording programs didn't emphasize the gear a person had, but what they were able to do with it. All three program directors told me that most people won't be able to tell the gear you're using to record and that throwing money at gear to improve sound quality was a losing proposition because of the downward pressure on recorded music sales.

In sum: yes, details do make a difference in tone, but more to me than to the listener. I care enough about these details to try different pups, but not enough to disassemble the pups. Some details are more important than others, depending upon the cost needed to go through all the permutations of those details. Music is a business, and cost of the signal chain is important in order to make a profit. Cost of signal chain does not mean quality. The value and flexibility of a $2000 rack unit is rapidly exceeding real amps for both live and studio use, especially as technology progresses. The cost of music production and performance must come down to offset the decreased purchasing of recorded music and demand for lower priced tickets. Those who insist in throwing money after diminishing tonal returns are either independently wealthy or not concerned about turning a profit with their music (serious hobbyists). In light of the above, modifying the actual environment (soundproofing a room, guitar wood) or modifying analog technology (pickups, metal, amp parts) makes less sense when software and modeling can do it more cost effectively and with greater precision.

I don't know what I would have had to do to the pickup to make my JB sound the way I wanted it to, but a high pass filter at 200 hz and some cutting at 300 hz did wonders, and it only took a few seconds. I can't say the same about screws, magnets, etc.

I think all of your verbose iteration has actually just reinforced my point.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

"A kemper or Axe FX is the cheapest means?"

Yes sir, relative to a wall of amps with matching cabs, with nice tubes and rebiased hot.

You could easily spend at least $2000 on a used boutique amp or a new Marshall.

Or...I could use Jam Up

Winning.
 
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