Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

[Metalman_666]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

I still feel like Ace was trolling but love seeing all the input here. Bogners have always seemed like the grail of the hot Marshall tone to me, but I'm not convinced the Marshall sound is where I wanna be.

When (not if) my tastes evolve and I do wanna go there, I'd shell out and go straight to Bogner and leave Bugera for the young'uns who don't "get it"

No offense to anyone here who is happy with their Bugera, but I think we can all agree; the knockoff brand might do many things well, but not as well as the brands it imitates

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[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

What can I say? Maybe I don't get it 'cuz of my simple tastes but.. tone like this makes me happy..

No desire for a Bogner of any sort whatsoever.. (and I'm going on 50)

 

[Erlend_G]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

Those "inside pics" of the Bogner- are really nice

but... all those parts can't cost like 4000USD ? there's gotta be some money you pay for the "brand"...

not to be a party pooper.

I've for many years been wanting a "Weber Kit Amp", assembled by their workshop, with 230V transformers , and shipped to my place.

Awesome!! Bang for the buck.

Preferably a Princeton clone, with 12" custom choice speaker, and stuff... but still too expensive for me, without a year+ of savings.

-Erl

 

[JMP/HBE]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss









Why spend $3K to $4K for a "bogner" Marshall style amp when you could have the real thing for less than 1/2 that price ?

Not seeing the value there.

 

[Cynical]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

A 100 watt made-in-UK Marshall costs about $3k new, so I don't know where you're getting "less than 1/2 that price" from: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JCM800--marshall-jcm800-2203x-100-watt-tube-head
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/1959HW--marshall-1959hw-100-watt-handwired-tube-head

A Bogner will typically have slightly different voicing, with thicker low mids and more gain on tap. And, of course, that's assuming you're going for a Helios or a GoldFinger SL45; a lot of their other amps, such as the Uberschall/Twin Jet, aren't really voiced much like a Marshall at all.

 

[chadd]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

Those "inside pics" of the Bogner- are really nice

but... all those parts can't cost like 4000USD ? there's gotta be some money you pay for the "brand"...

not to be a party pooper.

You're paying for the knowledge and skills to create the circuit, as well as the expense that comes alone with selling a relatively low volume of the amps with quality components. It's much easier to reverse engineer the amp, put in lower quality parts and pay someone dramatically less money to assemble it somewhere in China or Indonesia where the cost of labor is a small fraction of what it is in Europe or the US.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

I mean, my Helios is handwired and uses a turret board much like the 1959HW that was posted. Plus, I paid $1750 shipped and not $3-4K. Bogner is just releasing all his popular Marshall mods that the "real" ones couldn't do in the '80s. We wouldn't have Friedman or Bogner making amps if guitar players were satisfied with real Marshall lol.

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[JMP/HBE]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

A 100 watt made-in-UK Marshall costs about $3k new, so I don't know where you're getting "less than 1/2 that price" from: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JCM800--marshall-jcm800-2203x-100-watt-tube-head
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/1959HW--marshall-1959hw-100-watt-handwired-tube-head

A Bogner will typically have slightly different voicing, with thicker low mids and more gain on tap. And, of course, that's assuming you're going for a Helios or a GoldFinger SL45; a lot of their other amps, such as the Uberschall/Twin Jet, aren't really voiced much like a Marshall at all.

100 JMP's can be had for as little as $1000 to $1200 if you know where to look but their prices have gone up in value the last 10 years. And a 38 to 40+ year old JMP is going to need some maintenance. Nobody i know in their right mind would pay Sweetwater "engineer's" $3K for a 2203x.

"Bogner" is a brand and you're paying for the name when you contribute to the Reinhold retirement account.

 

[Cynical]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

100 JMP's can be had for as little as $1000 to $1200 if you know where to look but their prices have gone up in value the last 10 years. And a 38 to 40+ year old JMP is going to need some maintenance. Nobody i know in their right mind would pay Sweetwater "engineer's" $3K for a 2203x.

"Bogner" is a brand and you're paying for the name when you contribute to the Reinhold retirement account.

No one is paying $3k for a used Bogner, either. If you look around a bit, you can get a Helios for roughly $1800 (Edit: just looked on Reverb, and Shivas go used for $1400 all day long, and I can't find a vertical-input 2203 for less than $2k), and it'll be only a few years old and not need any maintenance at all.

$3k is the going rate on any new 100 watt Made-in-UK Marshall, whether bought from Sweetwater, Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, Amazon, or anywhere else. Let's compare apples to apples here -- either new Marshall vs. new Bogner or used Marshall vs. used Bogner. You'll find the prices are pretty similar, unless you're talking about Marshall's Chinese crap.

I like how you pretend that you're not paying for the "Marshall" name when that's on a piece of gear, though. How much is Marshall paying you to to on forums and say "everything that isn't Marshall sucks/isn't used by pros/is overpriced" when that's demonstrably false?

 

[JMP/HBE]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

Taste in amps varies like shoe size & hair color.
Vague dialog serves no purpose. .... $.02

Having said that i will likely never own a bog-ner and damn sure never a boogera.

Course if a crackhead was selling an XTC of a Uberschall real cheap on CL it wouldn't be prudent to turn him down.
Then again knowing my luck the Uber would be stolen & id run the risk of getting carjacked so like i said good chance i'll never own either.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

"Bogner" is a brand and you're paying for the name when you contribute to the Reinhold retirement account.

You crapped on Peavey, EVH, and Schecter based on their name a couple of weeks ago. So, it does in fact show that paying for a brand name means a lot to you. I see a Friedman tag on your Marshall. He's charging $3799 for a BE-100. Guess his funds must be set too.

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[JMP/HBE]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

You crapped on Peavey, EVH, and Schecter based on their name a couple of weeks ago. So, it does in fact show that paying for a brand name means a lot to you. I see a Friedman tag on your Marshall. He's charging $3799 for a BE-100. Guess his funds must be set too.

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Gee, internet opines how does that work. FWIW i have nothing to do with PV or schec-turds reputation. Thats all them bud.
I call balls & strikes as i see them.
If your biggest problem in life is me posting on a guitar forum about guitar stuff then id say you don't have too many problems & it has nothing to do with me.

Last time i checked this IS a forum.


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[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

Geez that edit though. Still trashing companies based on name I see. I wonder what was Friedman's overhead when they used Mallory caps in their $3799 amp lol.

Getting back to the thread.

Bugera = budget friendly clones/copies that people either like or crap on.
Bogner = dude who modded Marshall's back in the '80s that people either like or crap on.

Let your wallet and ears decide what suits you. Be a savvy buyer, the used online market has friedmans, bogners, marshalls all below retail.

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[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

One observation though...contrary to popular belief Bugera's are actually diferent enough (both circuit & tone-wise) to not be identical clones (unlike the bootique guys making "exact" Plexi clones using "original componets and tranny's"). In many cases the Bugera's actually sound pretty different to the amps they supposedly clone..like the way more prominent/crunchier upper mids in Fluff's Trirec vs Mesa Recto video etc. Their selling point is that they're like so and so amp, but more affordable ....it's marketing.....but they're actually tweaked/modded versions which is pretty much what every amp maker out there right now does....no different (Bugera just admits it & uses it to their advantage..that's all)

I've compared a JSX and my Bugera side by side at our practice space for months & they're far from identical sounding amp's. The Bugera 333xl Infy has way more lower mids that allow it to get well into Recto territory if needed thanks to it's beefier tranny's ..it's like a thicker meatier & more gainy version of a JSX crossed with a Recto and it's obviously obviously been tweeked/"hot-rodded" to sound the way it does.

Yeah..most people discount Bugera's based on price/country of origin/reliability (not a problem anymore) ....but I've rarely heard them do it 'cause of their sound ....and frankly that's because they can't (other people have ears too..) and there's enough killer sounding Bugera video's around to discredit any cause for derision there.....


6260 anyone?

 

[deathbytinnitus]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

Thanks for the welcome guys. I have actually been surfing this forum since I was in high school about 2004-2005. I just now wanted to join up, never to late, eh?

Ah yes I have seen that video with the TriRec and the Mesa. I haven't played the TriRec, but I have played/owned the 333XL. Also had a G5 for a while.

It's a good amp and I have also seen that Keith Merrow video. Those guys can make anything sound impressive, there is also another guy on you tube I think his name is Dongle or somesuch that gets really good tones out of them.

I dont think there is a Bogner Uberschall clone and would be interesting to see one. i've been inside the Uberschall to change the headshell (well not really inside inside to do work but I took a look in there) Im not really going to go into the details of what the Bogner looks like inside compared to a Bugera. All I can say Bugera are as cheaply made as possible and are obvious copies of pre-existing amps (5150, 5150 ii, XXX, JSX, Rectifier, Blackstar ht5, JCM900 or whatever the 1990 is supposed to be). Think of how Peavey went as cheap as possible with some of their stuff, Bugera is kind of next level cheap. (cost wise, not quality) You can tell that Bogner takes extreme pride in what they do and every component seems carefully laid out and has a purpose, and for such a heavy sounding amp it doesnt actually have that much in the circuit. There is something to be said about going on youtube and obsessing over videos of amps instead of in person. The amp in the room always sounds different, IME and the guitar players themselves have alot to do with the tone.

As far as Bugera, For what they are, they are really good sounding and aside from the legendary first batch that had bad connectors, I believe they are of decent quality. Whether they are of the same build quality as the amps they are copying, is up for debate. I have never had any shame in owning Chinese gear, and dont wish to throw shade on anyone that likes them--- I like them too, so much that a recommended a 333XL to my buddy. Prices of them have actually gone way up since the tariffs have been a thing, I remember them being like 400$ new--- now go look at the New prices of a Bugera.

EDIT:I agree with the above poster, the 333XL does not sound the same as the peavey counter part, it has its own thing going on for sure.

 

[Cynical]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

I dont think there is a Bogner Uberschall clone and would be interesting to see one.

It'll probably never happen -- the presence circuit is reliant on a custom-wound inductor to create a LRC notch-filter in the negative feedback loop, it's the sort of thing that would probably be cost-prohibitive to smaller companies, and larger ones probably won't want to bother with something like that. The Uberschall/Twin Jet is a weird circuit in general, and the power amp takes it completely into mad scientist realms.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

Thanks for the welcome guys. I have actually been surfing this forum since I was in high school about 2004-2005. I just now wanted to join up, never to late, eh?

Ah yes I have seen that video with the TriRec and the Mesa. I haven't played the TriRec, but I have played/owned the 333XL. Also had a G5 for a while.

It's a good amp and I have also seen that Keith Merrow video. Those guys can make anything sound impressive, there is also another guy on you tube I think his name is Dongle or somesuch that gets really good tones out of them.

I dont think there is a Bogner Uberschall clone and would be interesting to see one. i've been inside the Uberschall to change the headshell (well not really inside inside to do work but I took a look in there) Im not really going to go into the details of what the Bogner looks like inside compared to a Bugera. All I can say Bugera are as cheaply made as possible and are obvious copies of pre-existing amps (5150, 5150 ii, XXX, JSX, Rectifier, Blackstar ht5, JCM900 or whatever the 1990 is supposed to be). Think of how Peavey went as cheap as possible with some of their stuff, Bugera is kind of next level cheap. (cost wise, not quality) You can tell that Bogner takes extreme pride in what they do and every component seems carefully laid out and has a purpose, and for such a heavy sounding amp it doesnt actually have that much in the circuit. There is something to be said about going on youtube and obsessing over videos of amps instead of in person. The amp in the room always sounds different, IME and the guitar players themselves have alot to do with the tone.

As far as Bugera, For what they are, they are really good sounding and aside from the legendary first batch that had bad connectors, I believe they are of decent quality. Whether they are of the same build quality as the amps they are copying, is up for debate. I have never had any shame in owning Chinese gear, and dont wish to throw shade on anyone that likes them--- I like them too, so much that a recommended a 333XL to my buddy. Prices of them have actually gone way up since the tariffs have been a thing, I remember them being like 400$ new--- now go look at the New prices of a Bugera.

EDIT:I agree with the above poster, the 333XL does not sound the same as the peavey counter part, it has its own thing going on for sure.

The thing with Bugera is they use the modern mass-produced consumer electronics approach to building...so yeah, there's more SMD stuff etc...something stops working replace the board like you would with your washing machine or TV. (also made with consumer grade SMD components). No expensive trip's to the tech needed. They don't skimp on the iron I can tell you that ..just take a look at the size of their tranny's compared to the amp's they're copying. At the end of the day there are guy's who can spend all day oogling amp innards and marvelling at the beauty & symmetry of it all but personally I'm not one of them. I'm just happy when I hear the tone I like coming out of my speakers ...and that's where my Bugera deliver's all day long :bigthumb:

Old Marshall's and Fender's weren't too different in that they were built primarily with price considerations in mind which is why you have a bunch of different tranny's caps, tube's etc in them They changed componets according to availability/price all the time. There was nothing "boutique" in their approach to building and a lot of those innards were messy as ****...not pristinely laid out at all. Yet those amp's are today's holy grail of tone...

The Bugeras's sound great whether you're in front of them (been in front of plenty both on and off stage) or you're listening to Merrow play them 'cause whatever studio magic he does to those video's he does to his countless 'big-name' amp video's as well & by that yardstick those should then sound way better, but they don't..

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

6260 anyone?

I know Keith and Ola are better known for their gears demos, but damn, do they bring chops and riffs to the table. They could make a box and string chug lol. I can definitely get behind that 6260, sounds good to me. There's one on Reverb for $325 and local (~30 miles). Too bad its 120W. Can't play one through the Two Notes X Captor.

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[JMP/HBE]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

If under-wound transformers/plastic shaft pots/consumer grade R/C/PCB parts is considered "as good as anything else" by the lame-stream public these days it just re-enforces why i like what i like.
Nobody is ever going to convince me that Uli Behringer makes quality stuff ..... period.
No matter how many down-tuned Utube clips that sound like someone beating a trash can lid with reverb.



Bugera's target market consumer ^^^^^

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Bogner vs Bugera: Discuss

** dude knows his tone!


But yeah...no underwound tranny's with Bugera (now some of those old Marshall's on the other hand :laugh2 & no plastic shafted pots + their pcb's are industry standard...

8 years & counting without a trip to the tech works for me :bigthumb:

Hate on them all you like ...I'm enjoying mine