Bridge p/u in Neck position

T

tvrfan2003

New member
Sorry for what is likely another silly question for those that know but could use some help again...Building a Tele with Bigsby, 5 way, HSH layout, play classic rock & blues....have a TB4 for the bridge and plan was a hot strat single coil middle, and a Pearly Gates for the neck...question is...
I can get a good deal on a Pearly Gates bridge p.u, but not sure what problems using the bridge p.u in neck would present tone wise? Also any suggestions on how to wire above for best variety, that is leave HB as they are, or split as single coils somehow? Any thoughts appeciated again...
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Good to see another classic rock/blues fan. A PAF type bridge PU will work in the neck position, but since it has more windings, it'll be a little warmer & have a bit more output. Usually not an issue unless you have a dark-toned guitar. In a fat, mahogany LP, I want as bright a neck PU as possible, but in a Tele, it's not a concern. If you find it a bit darker than you intended, put an A3 in it for a dash of treble.

Neck PU's usually work better for coil cut, as there's more volume & warmth there, due to the abundance of string energy. So I'd split the PG with a push-pull.

Since the JB is pretty hot, you can split that too and still have some oomph left. You can use one push-pull to split both HB's, or two to do them separately. If the JB turns out to be too bright (that famous spike), you can tame it with a warmer magnet (lots of guys here do that).

Your PU selection should work fine, but could end up needing a different pot or magnet to get them exactly like you want, which is a cheap & easy tweak. We'll help you thru that.
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Thanks! I have a nice Maple fingerboard Fender neck, and doing my own body. Picking up wood next week, trying to decide between Swamp Ash, or White Limba (doing a highly figured veneer face) and figure which would give me brighter sound? Appreciate the feedback on P/U as would save a ton if I can get this bridge PG instead of a neck at full list....Still struggling to understand HOW to get the coil split option but understand the concept...was originally going to go with a single stacked concentric pot to keep guitar clean and simple, and was hoping could accomplish splitting with the 5 way, but will investigate push/pull option to better understand it...like I said, lots to learn but clearly lots of help here!! Tks again
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Concentric pots are more expensive, more complicated, and harded to use. I don't think they're worth it. I use standard DPDT push-pulls. Drawback to mini-toggles is that they require drilling new holes, which does wonders for the resale value of a guitar (unless you drill in a replaceable pickguard).

There are a lot of excellent wiring diagrams on the site. Coil cut is easy, you shut off (ground out) one coil and get single coil, which means less volume with more treble & clarity. I've only used 3-way switches, so you'll need to check for 5-way diagrams. You may have to wire the 5-way as normal, & use a volume or tone push-pull for coil cut (easy to do). ArtieToo & Hermtico are the diagram experts if you need something special.

Are you looking for bright wood? Check out Warmouth's description of wood tones. I'd go with Limba myself, which would be a little warmer. There's always plenty of treble in your amp.

Get that PGB and get started.
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

DPDT?? Found a great diagrams for the 5 way with a HSH setup using single volume, single tone as I planned..will search a bit later again to see whats there for multiple pots. So I could likely use same diagram, but have pots that let HB work as normal, but if pulled up, would have them act as Singles?? Ok, that would work.
Could likely still work with one volume, one tone, but have the volume a push-pull for splitting? Yes? Guess I have lots of homework to do, but really appreciate the input ..now off to see if that pup is still there....
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

You can split one or both PU's with a single push-pull; raising it would put both in coil cut. If you want to do them idependently, you can use two push-pulls (volume & tone) so that you can also get bridge HB/neck SC and bridge SC/neck HB. That would give a total of 8 PU options (bridge HB, neck HB, both HB, bridge SC, neck SC, both SC); not bad for two pots.

Have you thought about pot values? Maybe one 250K and one 500K? Two 500K's? A neck HB usually needs the brightness from a 500K. The JB could benefit from the warmth of a 250K. For a two pot guitar with a JB, I'd put a warmer magnet in the JB (A8, A4, A2), and then use 500K's for both pots. JB's with 500K's are known to be bright; of course you could always dial down the tone control. I know, decisions, decisions...
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Ok, I was lost on the LAST thread!! :-)
Ok, So I chnage from one control to two, 1 volume, 1 tone, both are push pull? But if idea is to have ability to split by pulling one, I get ONE being a push pull (3 HB when down, 3 SC when pulled up), whats the other one controlling? Sorry, trying to keep up here! Will owe you a couple of cold ones by the time I figure this one out!
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Sorry man, just reread thread and NOW I get it...the other tone push/pull gives the other two options, of split HB/SC....Ok, I REALLY like that, as it gives me the options I like, but can do it with two pickups instead of three, cleans up the pickguard, less outlay for p.u.!!! You have convinced me, definetly a better option...didnt realize could get that many options from two p/u. Is there a downside to using the 250 pot? Advantage is it adds warmth to JB bridge, is their downside that makes the work of changing magnets worthwhile to get the 500 pot?
Now I just need to find the wiring diagram, and I am ready to start building....thanks SO much for the time, had changed the direction slightly but for the BETTER.....
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Push-pulls have two rows of three lugs in the bottom "box" section. When the knob is down, the bottom 4 lugs are on; when pulled up, the top four are on. This means the middle pair of lugs is always on, and the top two & bottom two swap. For coil cut, you solder the red & white wires to a middle lug on te epush-pull, and a short ground wire to the pot casing. When the knob is down, both coils work & you have normal HB mode. When the knob is raised, the one coil (red & white wires) is paired with the ground & therefore shorted out, giving you single coil. Because there's two rows of lugs, you can do one PU's red & white on one side, and the other PU's on the other side. Both are single coil at the same time. Two push-pulls let you operate coil cuts independently, for a couple more tonal options.

I forgot about the middle single coil you're putting in (I normally think in terms of Gibson designs). With independent coil cuts, you can pair a neck coil with the middle PU, making a "virtual" HB in parallel, and the same with a bridge coil & the middle PU. Lots of tone options between the 5-way & push-pulls (at least 14 combinations between the 3 PU's).

The one downside to using a 250K is that while it warms the bridge PU, it will also warm the neck, which may or may not be an issue (that's up to you). Some guys love the JB with 500K's, others say it needs 250K's (the way Seymour originally intended it), and still others say it needs a warmer magnet. Then there's a insubordinate group of us (me included) that think it's "ice pick" spike is too bright & harsh no matter what you do. So what's right for you, that's your decision. The easiest approach may be to use 500K's for volume & tone, and if the JB winds up being too bright, put in a warmer magnet (A2, A3, A4, or A8). If you want to try an A2, I've got a pile of them I've taken out of Gibson & Duncan PU's; I'll give you one.

As far as electronics, remember every electrical part has a hot wire & a ground wire running to it (PU's, pots, switch, & jack). Leave of the hot wire to something & the part doesn't work; leave off the ground somewhere & you get a lot of noise. The inside of a guitar looks like spaghetti to the untrained eye, but its really very organized & logical.
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Ok, starting to make sense, likely will get it better when components are in front of me...I have decided to just go with two HB, as if I use your two p/p pots, that still gives me 8 tones, and thats WAY more than enough for my talent level anyway. Just took closer look at my TB4 and see the black for the switch, red/white that would go to middle two lugs you note, and assume ground from PU would go to pot..whats the green??? :-) More research I guess. Will have another look at the wiring schematics now that I have p/u layout decided and look for a 2 hb, 3 way switch, with 1 vol P/P and 1 tone P/P..that may help better grasp the outline you have given me. I will be picking up the limba to start body Monday, still recommend an A3 magnet for it? Likely will stay with the two 500 for now and adjust if needed. At this rate, that "spagetti" may make sense by time I actuallt get it going..really appreciate your patience
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

tvrfan2003 said:
Blueman355, can you have a quick look for me, this looks like the wiring diagram I would need based on your description?
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2h_1v_1t_3w_2pp
Click to expand...

Very good, you found the right diagram. The Duncan site has the best diagrams. The black wires are Duncan's code for "hot", the green & bare are ground, and the red & white are paired together & used for coil cut. You can see the two rows of three lugs on the push-pull boxes. The red/white wires are soldered to the middle lug (which is always active). The bottom lug is on when the knob is down, and the top on (and bottom off) when the knob is pulled up. Each row of 3 lugs is independent, which is why you can do coil cut for two PU's with one push-pull pot.

As you work on a guitar or two, this will all make sense. It's very low tech stuff. And extremely low wattage, thank God, so you won't get electrocuted if you goof up.
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

tvrfan2003 said:
I will be picking up the limba to start body Monday, still recommend an A3 magnet for it? Likely will stay with the two 500K for now and adjust if needed. At this rate, that "spagetti" may make sense by time I actually get it going..really appreciate your patience
Click to expand...

With a HH guitar, you'll only need a 3-way toggle switch, which is easier to wire than a 5-way. 8 PU combinations from that (with two push-pulls) should give you plenty to play around with.

See how it sounds, and if either PU needs a shove in a certain EQ direction, than a $5 magnet should take care of it. Right now you don't know for sure. You might like everything the way it is, or you may want tweak a little. There's lots of threads on magnet swapping (one of my favorite subjects) so you can learn about their tonal qualities and outputs.

So, after you finish this project, do you have any more electric guitars to work on? Can't stop now.
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Thanks, at least I feel better 5that I am STARTING to get it figured out...on schematic the "square" portion I assume is the "bottom" set of lugs on the stacked pot? But when I look at picture of one there are three lugs on top part, and 3 lugs on bottom...but on diagram the "square" or bottom pot is shown to have "six" spots???
Ready to shoot me yet? Scary thing is that yes, even though I havent even started this one til next week, I have already thought of different guitar concept, just based on what I have learned this week (thanks to help of yourself and couple of others for other parts of the build)....addictive!
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

sorry, i AM an idiot....i was picturing a concentric vol/tone pot, and when I realized what you had explained, I took a better look online and see the 6-post pot...will have to study the diagram better now that I know I have the right one to match with what you had explained...definetly the way the build will move forward...I can't tell you how much I have appreciated your patience and time on this....off the the schematic...
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Well, I was going to post something but Blueman pretty much wiped the slate. :)
 
Re: Bridge p/u in Neck position

Already having that thought! Blueman335, have p/u's and neck, putting rest of order list together to start the project, thanks again for the help sorting out best approach. Scary thing is, I havent started this project yet, and the El Degas LP copy my dad bought me for my 15th birthday is looking really nervous as it hangs on the wall here. Kept it for sentimental reasons, but p/u's aren't great, and already decided that next project will be finding the pups/options that will replace the old Jap parts! Suggestions :-) This is WAY too addictive.
 
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