by yourself vs in the mix

[UCSDBoy]

My friend is a good bass player and a decent metal guitarist, but he's an absolute retard when it comes to gear or getting a decent sound. He's always complaining about us not sounding good together sometimes. I keep telling him about the differences between playing by yourself vs being in the mix (you can tell he doesn't play with other people often). He's just not getting it... what to say to him?

And speaking of that, does anyone know of good gear pairs? For instance, I could see my custom customs getting lost in the mix while the JB being able to cut through everything else... anyone know of amp combos, etc?

 

[Kent S.]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

I don't really know what to say in regard to amp combos or such, but as far as being in the mix per se' ... well I have noticed(quite often ) that even though a scooped mid tone often sounds good post distortion for some metal, and even hard rock (less mid scoop) theat any lead work tend to get lost immediately, or it gets jacked up so loud that it sounds really thin and *empty*, and chord work tends to have very little definition, and a loss of chunkiness and crunch. The dynamics simply don't come thru as well.
Often times what works well in solo practice just doesn't fly with other instruments ... the catch is for each instrument to have it's own frequency range, that way when mixed together they don't compete for the same musical space. Like frequency components playing in various phases tend to cancell each other out ... some people have experinced this problem when doing three (or so) overdubs of the same rhythm part, with the same tone. They expect to hear this *huge* tone, but what they get lacks punch,is muddy, and well not really able to hear the separate parts. Now when they take the same thing, and vary the tone on each track, much better separation, and definition, not to mention dynamics.
The problem though seems to be more of a problem with he core tone (although I bet he won't think so) ... here's a trick,if you can record on an MTR or multitrack on a computer, or even record the band rehearsal/jams thru a mixer but mix his guitar one one channel and mix everyone else to another channel. Then play it back with the two channels apart, then mix them to mono with the pan controls and let him hear the difference between how he sounds separate and how he sounds blended with the band.A step further would be to run his channel into an eq and return it back into the mixer; then you can eq his guitar so that it sounds good in the mix (or let him do it),then pan the channels out again so that the band is again on one channel (left maybe) and he is on the other (right) ... He'll hear how his tone know sounds different, and he might not like it the way it sounds by itself ... but he'll hear the difference when mixed together with everything else. Call it an object lesson. Just like in most recording you want a very tight and not overly low endy signal, with a lot of the natural mids. Funny thing how you can always add highs and low end, but if it's too much low end to start with, you can't take it back out,if it's too screechy ... you're stuck with it, you can suck mids out, but putting them back in doesn't work as well (IMHO) ... just my take on it.Maybe someone can give you an answer on the gear thing.

 

[mjsever]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

I've been there and I feel your pain. Although unfortunately I can't tell you much about the pickup/amp combos that best cut though, I can tell you what my bands have done to sound better together. If this isn't what you're looking for, you can just skip right over the rest of this post...

One big thing my bands have done to improve our sound was to have everyone eq their amps to better differentiate the instruments. I'm not sure about your lineup, but it's important to assign different guitars different tones, either through different instruments or through eqs. I also found that when I switched from a modeling amp to a real tube amp I suddenly cut through the mix much better for some reason. Bass should definitely be on the low end (obviously..), but it's worth mentioning because I played with a guy who had a Rickenbacker that fought with the guitar a lot. Vocals should be crisp so you can hear the sibilants. And some drummers should probably not hit so hard... All this needs to be done while you're at practice- you're absolutely right that the best sound at home is not necessarily the best for the band.

Another thing is that sometimes someone is too loud. Turning one instrument down a notch sometimes is all you need to bring the whole thing together.

All these things are highly dependent upon the personalities of your band mates; I've found that some people don't take kindly to suggestions for some reason. it's like it's a personal affront to them! But if that were the case, I imagine you probably wouldn't be playing with the guy in the first place.

 

[mjsever]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

looks like Kent S and I posted the same thing at the same time!

 

[Kent S.]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

looks like Kent S and I posted the same thing at the same time!

Yeah well, like they say ... the truth is the truth ... alot of these things I learned years back (other than experience) by reading recording magazines and pestering the crap out of soundmen (don't pester them while you actually play though, they don't like that ... that's not the time to play 20 questions), and a few recording engineers. Genrally once you have that experince of listening to your self (sounding good) with the band, and then listen to the same track alone; then you realize the importance of ensemble tone. The difference can be very different ... :saeek:

 

[UCSDBoy]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

thanks guys! I'm going to print all this out and give it to him... it'll add weight to the situation. =)

 

[Farkus]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

Some guys will never get it...when more than one instrument is played, there are more frequencies produced and the interaction produces a different sound. One guy that I played in a band with got really offended when I told him he should re-eq at band practice b/c he was getting lost in the mix...he was like...'no way, dude. I just need to turn up!'

Ugh.

Farkus

 

[what?]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

ppl are idiots. i showed my friend how to make his tube amp OD, but he is still always complaining about how he can never get distorted parts. he completely forgot the thing i showed him, when he re-EQed his amp.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

Some guys will never get it...when more than one instrument is played, there are more frequencies produced and the interaction produces a different sound. One guy that I played in a band with got really offended when I told him he should re-eq at band practice b/c he was getting lost in the mix...he was like...'no way, dude. I just need to turn up!'

Ugh.

Farkus

Kinda like the first time I used a midboost after distortion, I listen to it and said that sounds all boxy and horn like .. yech! Then I the bass player convinced me that it sounded good, so I got one of those ridiculously long cables and walked out in front of the PA (small rehearsal stuff) while the band was playing, I took a solo with volume boost, then I took one without but with the midboost ... the midboost actually did sound better in context with everythig else, and you could hear everything, plus the extra bass and treble that sounded good for rhythm was gone, as with out the mid boost and simply raising the volume got the guitar sounding icepicky and the low end wasn't clear.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: by yourself vs in the mix

One other thing to, as long as we are talking about solos, if you can get a parametric eq you are way ahead of the curve (no pun intended), now you can go full blown rack, but Arion (yes I will reference a cheap pedal if it gets the job done) had a single band parametric eq that was ideal, you could change the frequency (they sweep kinda like a wah, if you're never used one), and you have your level control (boost/cut),and your Q (bandwidth control) ... there are some high line parametric eqs available in pedal form as well. The point is if you have two players that are going to solo then they are great because they let you give each player a different frequency boost ... it helps to keep both players separate. If boosting with a graphic eq, then boosting around different mid frequencies will do the same. Also, it helps say a strat be given a boost that suits it, an LP normally will have a different set of frequencies boosted to match it's tonal character then a strat would.