can someone help me understand time signatures?

[DankStar]

specifically, what would it be called if you're cruising along in 4/4 with a riff, but when you get to tick/beat 7.5, the second part of the riff begins? Then it's 4/4 for the next 2 measures, then back to the 7.5 thing? I've tried 3/4, 7/16, all sorts of weird stuff but it doesn't seem to work.

It's like so close to two measures of 4/4, but it just needs to cut off on the second measure - by 1/2 beat. That's not what 3/4 is, is it?

I keep racking my brain, but can't for the life of me figure out how to have a time signature stop in between ticks/beats in logic. It only wants to do full beats - am I missing something?

This isn't just an exercise in futility - I need to go in to logic and change the tempo and time signatures to match riffs for a tune I'm working on.

edit: I guess I can just keep things in 4/4 and insert a bunch of kick drums on 8th or 16th notes and delete as needed to create the illusion of what I'm looking for. it won't follow the click but I can follow the bass drum at that part of the song.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

there is no time signature of 7.5.
So we have to start at the beginning i guess.
4/4 time means there a four quarter notes per bar.
2/4 means there are two quarter notes per bar.
3/4 means there are three quarter notes per bar and so on.
You probably already know this so far.

In a bar of 4/4 there are four quarter notes. easy. in the same space of time you can fit One Whole note, or two half notes. You could do one half note and two quarters etc. It doesnt matter - as lond as all the halves and quarters etc add up to one.

An eighth note is half of a quarter note. Two eighths equal one quarter. two quarters equal one half and two halves equal one whole.

So, in a bar of 4/4, you can fit eight eighth notes. Or maybe 4 eighth notes and maybe two quarter notes. It doesn't matter how you do it as long as all the fractions add up to one whole bar.

Now here's the thing...you can have time signatures with different numbers than 4 on the bottom. For example 6/8 has six eighth notes per bar. So far we have been considering quarter notes as one beat (so two eights is one beat, and one eighth is half a beat right?). However, in 6/8, the eighth note now becomes the value of one full beat.
So, a bar of 4/4 has 4 beats and a bar of 4/8 has four beats also. The bottom number is all about what note value you are defining as one beat.

So - to get to your question....
half a quarter note beat is one eighth note.
So in regular musical notation, you would have some bars of 4/4, then a bar of 7/8.
The bar where you are getting stuck is not 3 and a half beats in 4/4 time. It is one full bar of 7/8.

You are dealing with a situation called "mixed meter". Have a look at how the mixed meter is notatated here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(music)#Compound_meter

Frustration solution:
If you cant program the metronome in Logic to do bars of various signatures, then just set it for 1/8 and have a constant stream of 8th note clicks with no bar lines.

 

[DankStar]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

I think part of my problem may be me not always playing the riff exactly spot on the same time signature (when a click is absent). But it would seem that 7/8 is what I need to shoot for - I'm going to concentrate on that now that you've explained it. It makes sense.

Thanks!

 

[metalmachine]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

I think part of my problem may be me not always playing the riff exactly spot on the same time signature (when a click is absent). But it would seem that 7/8 is what I need to shoot for - I'm going to concentrate on that now that you've explained it. It makes sense.

Thanks!

I was gonna tell u this exactly

 

[DankStar]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

yeah, when I really sat down with it, I noticed I was playing it a hair outta wack with 7/8, just a tad later, but not consistently at the same spot. I finally made myself play it in 7/8 and have been much happier since then.

I thought it might be cool though for a 3rd guitar (trippier-sounding with flange or something) to be involved that would hold the last chord just slightly longer while the L and R guitars continue on to the next part; that way I can get my 7.5 on without messing up the flow, hehe. Sometimes these things sound better on paper, we'll see.

Yeah, I couldn't process the really off-time type bands. I don't make up stuff in that fashion (deliberately off time or whatever); I'll make up a riff then have to figure out what signature it's in. Usually I'm in 4/4 because I'm a block head, but in this case it didn't shake out like that.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

1, 2, 3, 4, 7 1/2.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

Personally, I find it easiest to think of it as 7.5 beats in the riff when playing it. In your head, turn what would be the upbeat of that final beat into the downbeat of the next measure. But that would not fly on paper; writing/reading it is another story.

If the riff "feels" like two bars of 4/4 minus a half beat, then common conventions say that it's a measure of 4/4 followed by a measure of 7/8.

But, like all music, it could also be written or thought of in different ways. 4/4 plus 7/8 would imply to me as a reader that the second bar has a different "feel" than the first. That's not necessarily true as a rule, but if sight reading, that's how I would tend to take it in at first glance.

Depending on the phrasing of the riff, it might actually be easier to figure out (or read) if it is thought of as 15/8. On paper, it would make the music a whole hell of a lot less messy and busy, and make it a lot easier to write. It would look intimidating to sight read, but if you had a little time to sit down with it, it would actually make it easier to read. But, as I said, that would depend on how the riff is phrased. If the riff feels like a long measure, as opposed to feeling like a full measure followed by a "chopped" measure, then 15/8 is the way to go IMO. If it feels like two distinct measures, then 4/4 followed by 7/8 is the way to go.

And, again, that's only on paper. In your head, I think it's fine to think of it as there being 7.5 "normal" beats in the riff.

 

[KRKBAB]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

The simplest way to approach that is to combine a measure of 4/4 and 7/8- that will give you the 7.5 you mention (if I understand what you mean by 7.5).

That would give you two measures to be able to write fifteen 16th notes.

 

[KRKBAB]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

1, 2, 3, 4, 7 1/2.

hwha?

There's no such thing as 1/2 in time signatures (if that's what you meant?).

The 2nd number is the note value, so it can only be 1,2,4,8,16...) and the first number is just how many notes (of the chosen value) you want in a given measure. The first number could be anything (literally) such as 4/4- 9/4- 17/8...
Technically, you can even have a 1/1 time sig. which would be 1 whole note per measure (how ever impractical that would be)!

In any even, I've found it's really hard to explain musical notation in writing (in a short comment) 'cause there's so much in the nomenclature to be confusing.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

6/8!?! So fractional reductions don't always apply? I always cut that down to 3/4 (2 guzinta 6 3 times, etc).

Hmmm. Might hafta play around with this, since I have a lot of riffs that I always related to 4/4 (foot tapping) but once I get a metronome going gets closer to 3/4 or 7/8, but just a hair off.
But then, I didn't really go along with the notion that the kick had to be on either the up or down beat, so if it started off kick-snare-kick-kick-snare, it would "invert" at the end of the pattern, or "shift" so it was kick-snare-kick-snare-snare.

Whatever works in your head, I suppose, but trying to make a mechanical device conform to your vision of reality is an entirely different thing :lol:

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

3/4 is different to 6/8.
2/2 is different to 4/4.
The difference is in the top number of the time signature. The top number is the most important in terms of getting the feel of any piece right.
In any bar of music, there is an accent on the first beat of the bar. In a bar of 3/4, the accent happens every 3 beats, whereas in 6/8 the accent happens every six and so on for all the time signatures.
Pretty much everybody's electronic metronome will accent the first beat automatically unless you tell it not to fwiw.

The bottom number is only there to delineate which note value is considered to be one beat for purposes of making writing and reading easier and clearer.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

To my way of thinking, a riff that is a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 7/8 is a riff in 15/8.

I use such things against a 4/4 backing to create cycles, where every second time the riff is played, it's 'upside down' against the beat. However, most metronomes are stubborn and don't wanna play, although some drum machines could be programmed to play something to work in 15/8. Personally I like the effect of every second riff being upside down and the hypnotic effect of playing that way, although it becomes almost impossible to even tap your foot, you have to turn your mind into a relentless machine and only focus on the 8th notes.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

Bootsy gets it!:smokin:

 

[KRKBAB]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

To my way of thinking, a riff that is a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 7/8 is a riff in 15/8.

I use such things against a 4/4 backing to create cycles, where every second time the riff is played, it's 'upside down' against the beat. However, most metronomes are stubborn and don't wanna play, although some drum machines could be programmed to play something to work in 15/8. Personally I like the effect of every second riff being upside down and the hypnotic effect of playing that way, although it becomes almost impossible to even tap your foot, you have to turn your mind into a relentless machine and only focus on the 8th notes.

Yeah, I know- but as far as notation is concerned, a measure of 15/8 could look cumbersome, so I mentioned two measures of uneven time sigs. But I guess if the riff is very fast, then a 15/8 would look better.
(I thought it would equal 17/8?- but it all depends on what he meant by the .5 in the 7.5)

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

Yeah, I know- but as far as notation is concerned, a measure of 15/8 could look cumbersome, so I mentioned two measures of uneven time sigs. But I guess if the riff is very fast, then a 15/8 would look better.
(I thought it would equal 17/8?- but it all depends on what he meant by the .5 in the 7.5)

How could 15/8 throughout possibly look more cumbersome than having a time signature that changes every bar?

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

Look at it in written form, then you'll know.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: can someone help me understand time signatures?

Look at it in written form, then you'll know.

Considering that my statement was obviously made after doing so, how does this response make any sense? It answers nothing; it only tells me to do what I have already done in forming my initial question.

Here is what I initially said about 15/8 (emphasis added):

"Depending on the phrasing of the riff, it might actually be easier to figure out (or read) if it is thought of as 15/8. On paper, it would make the music a whole hell of a lot less messy and busy, and make it a lot easier to write. It would look intimidating to sight read, but if you had a little time to sit down with it, it would actually make it easier to read. But, as I said, that would depend on how the riff is phrased. If the riff feels like a long measure, as opposed to feeling like a full measure followed by a "chopped" measure, then 15/8 is the way to go IMO. If it feels like two distinct measures, then 4/4 followed by 7/8 is the way to go."

Keeping it from being cumbersome would be one of the main reasons for writing it in 15/8. Difficult? Maybe. Intimidating? Maybe. But definitely not "cumbersome" in comparison to 4/4+7/8. As I said, there are reasons for writing it in 4/4+7/8, but there is no doubt that it is a much more cumbersome way to write it than 15/8.