Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

Inflames626

New member
Hey guys,
I seem to recall Parker and Tobias being high dollar brands back in the 90s. To my knowledge, they were both bought out (Tobias by Gibson, I believe).

I notice a huge price difference between older and newer models on the used market. Thought someone might tell me what's up.

Thanks.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

Here is the official telling of the Tobias story. http://www.mtdguitars.com/history/

Popular mythology has it that the output of musical instrument equipment manufacturers is magically superior whilst the founder is in charge. Nasty corporations ride on the reputation of the originators until they have sucked the soul right out of their designs then, spit out the remnants like a husk.

In the used guitar market, certain production/ownership time line markers have often been used to justify a price hike.

Fender before the CBS buy out.
Gibson before the Norlin buy out.
PRS before he increased factory size. (More than once!)
The PRS Singlecut model before Gibson went to litigation.

It is safe to predict that, when Seymour Duncan (the man) and Larry DiMarzio peg out, myths will begin that the products of their respective companies are no longer as good as they used to be.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

I didn't realize that Tobias had been sold that long ago. I thought they went out in the 00s. Most of the cheap ones I was seeing were the Toby line.

Apparently the difference between old and new Parkers is mainly a change between DiMarzio and Duncan, who now builds pickups that fit Parker's proprietary bridge design.

The new top of the line Parkers go for about $5k new. I've seen some used ones from the early 90s with DiMarzios and piezo electronics for about $1500.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

I also notice, with a bit of irony, that a lot of the iconic luthiers from the 70s-90s are now back to running their own small custom shops, competing against cheap import versions of their old businesses, which are now mega brands.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

I also notice, with a bit of irony, that a lot of the iconic luthiers from the 70s-90s are now back to running their own small custom shops, competing against cheap import versions of their old businesses, which are now mega brands.

A lot of them never left, Grover Jackson in one capacity or another has been around the business.

Wayne Charvel actually has little to zero to do with "Wayne" its really done by his son.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

Didn't Grover sell Jackson around 90-93 or so? I know he's been doing GJ for a while.

And I think Charvel left the Charvel/Jackson partnership even earlier.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

If anybody from back in the day made money hand over fist, it was probably Floyd Rose.

The company seems revitalized now. And Floyd made money for decades by licensing his design without having to go into the hole making his own stuff.

Sure, a lot of those licensed bridges are crap, but even if the profit margin on each one is small, I can only imagine what he made on OEM licensed parts over 20-30 years.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

Didn't Grover sell Jackson around 90-93 or so? I know he's been doing GJ for a while.

And I think Charvel left the Charvel/Jackson partnership even earlier.

Charvel was out really really early. If memory serves it was 78 when Grover acquired Charvel.

He sold Jackson in 1989 but hung out for a little bit as a consultant.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

Oh. I thought Wayne stayed on through the Ratt era when hair metal bands were really helping them sell San Dimas models.

If I remember correctly, he didn't want the more aggressive Randy Rhoades Concorde design to potentially mess up his super Strat vintage line under the Charvel name, so he spun that off under Grover.

The brands seem nearly identical these days.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

The new top of the line Parkers go for about $5k new. I've seen some used ones from the early 90s with DiMarzios and piezo electronics for about $1500.

There also other differences with the USA and Washburn Parkers. They no longer have stainless steel frets and the craftsmanship is not the same as the US models. The DiMarzio pickup went through some changes. A lot of people did not like the original DiMarzios. Larry then wound a 2nd gen pickup designed exclusively for that guitar that is amazing. There are a lot of factors to take into place when pricing a used Parker. Bolt on neck, pickups and the tremolo systems differ greatly.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

Oh. I thought Wayne stayed on through the Ratt era when hair metal bands were really helping them sell San Dimas models.

If I remember correctly, he didn't want the more aggressive Randy Rhoades Concorde design to potentially mess up his super Strat vintage line under the Charvel name, so he spun that off under Grover.

The brands seem nearly identical these days.

Wayne was gone by the time Rhoads came along. Grover left the Charvel name in place since it already had a reputation behind it. Grover made the call to put his own name on the Concorde to protect the Charvel name in case it was a flop.

Grover was bought out by the consultancy he hired in the mid 80s (IMC), who came up with the Charvel Model series. Grover was opposed to imports entirely, and wanted Charvel to be the bolt-on USA production line while Jackson did only the neckthrough Custom Shop products. However, the money masters won out, under the condition that Grover could train the builders in Japan personally rather than simply contracting with ESPee/Aria/Hoshino like everyone else did. IIRC he was gone before the USA production Jacksons launched.

As for Charvel and Jackson seeming identical these days, Charvel had no identity at the time other than as a logo and the fact they would do what Fender couldn't - a 22 fret USA-made Strat without a pickguard.

You'll hear things like "San Dimas neck profile", which never existed because Charvel did not establish one. He made whatever the cutomer wanted - boatneck, V, thin and round, asymmetrical, whatever. The neck profile you found on a Charvel was either precisely spec'd or left to the builder's whim, and between Wayne, Mike Eldred, Tim Wilson, Grover Jackson, and Mike Shannon, that was a lot of potential variation.

The Model series was the first Charvel to get a somewhat standardized neck profile, and even those went through changes over the years. The Model 5 and 6, as well as the 650XL, could be found with either a round profile or the Jackson "flat-spot" profile that was found on CS models, and later standard on the early USA and Pro models.
 
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Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

I take it original Jacksons and Charvels from the late 70s-mid 80s are worth quite a bit of money.

I shouldn't say Jacksons and Charvels are identical now. They appeal to slightly different tastes. But there are some models that are very Chevy/GMish--same design with a different logo.

To not do imports seems so old fashioned now. Few people can afford a custom shop instrument, or at least those with GAS can't. Seems the industry is almost entirely dependent on an approach that was considered a bit of a novelty 30 years ago. To paraphrase a friend of mine who went into the Austin, TX Guitar Center with me: "So, do you guys stock anything decent these days or is it just junk?"

Then again who would have thought lawsuit guitar builders would become desired in their own right? Like most things manufactured here during that time, USA build quality on 70s instruments wasn't stellar, to my knowledge.
 
Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

I remember Bobby Blotzer of Ratt Ebaying one of Robin Crosby's original custom shop Jacksons from the early mid 80s--it caused some controversy at the time because people thought it was in bad taste for Blotzer to auction what his dead friend willed to him.

I was surprised how basic the design was considering how expensive the guitar was back then. Just a bridge pickup and it might not even have been Duncans in there on the certificate of authenticity (1985 I think).

It would be neat for someone to do an analysis of custom shop guitars from back in the day to see how they stack up to custom shop models now in terms of price.

My theory is because they had fewer imports to compete against the emphasis was on American custom shop guitars only, so the downward pricing was stronger among shops.

Then again, you could say your own brand cannibalizes your custom shop. Why pay for a custom shop axe if a mass produced model fits your needs?

Then again, I doubt the Jackson custom shop will be competing with the JS/Performer models for players. Those demographics aren't in the same market.

I look at instruments like new cars. They tend to depreciate so quickly and not retain their value that they're not worth the expense unless I get a lot of labor intensive electronics out of it that I'd rather not put in myself (like a Parker's piezo system). I rarely sell or trade my guitars and if I do it's for something of equivalent value, so I'm not worried about getting a $2000 axe and then panicking whenever the corners chip. It would be a nightmare to gig with something like that.
 
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Re: Can someone straighten me out on Parker and Tobias?

I am currently waiting on a backordered Parker
And what i am interested in is the piezo

While MF has offered another axe
And i really would link the blue burst model
The blue just doesn't have the piezo like the red one i ordered
All else was the same

So i will wait on the backordered one

Btw it s the Indonesian version pf 85 in wine red the price was dropped to $549 from $799

The blue one with.out piezo is $599
But really . That is what i want

They have some QC issues at the factory
I hope they get that sorted
It was scheduled for mid Sept now has been pushed back twice to late October

I will give you a fair assessment when it arrives

*(Sent from my durned phone!)*
 
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