Can't Record Loud Enough

[DankStar]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

On my latest tune I'm using compression and limiting on each track, the master bus, then again in the mastering process. Seems to be working on my test runs (not posted anywhere yet). Trick is to back off on the presets before it pumps or gets all Death Magnetic-like.

I don't wig out too much on if my song sounds like X band/album anymore. A song I tracked in my underwear and mixed/mastered through my 9 year old headphones isn't going to sound like Tool's 10,000 days. I just accept it.

 

[Vetteboy]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

A song I tracked in my underwear and mixed/mastered through my 9 year old headphones isn't going to sound like Tool's 10,000 days. I just accept it.

:chairfall

So true. I've been fighting my own personal loudness war for years now, but that was more of an 'internal' thing - learning to minimize peaks and transients, fitting everything more appropriately into the sonic spectrum, etc. Right now my 'mastering' rig is a limiter/EQ patch into a BBE Sonic Maximizer and it works pretty well. The limiter settings are fairly forgiving so I don't run into that overly-compressed 'radio' kind of sound, but it takes some of the sharper peaks off.

 

[ex-250]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

you know what the wierd thing is, the channel volume creates more gain and gives me too much od.

that really is weird. never had that happen.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Just about every DAW application has a simple volume/gain control somewhere inside it... usually in the processes menu.

No reason to go outside the program for that, and the more you do that... and the more it's converted the worse it's going to sound. Especially if you're going from 24 bit files to something else... like Winamp probably knocks 'em down to 16... and then you go back again and it's all truncated...

Not so good.

What I do is raise the level of the completed .wav file with Winamp, my mp3 player. I change the Winamp output from direct output to diskwriter, which creates a copy of the original file. I run the EQ flat, but raise the preamp level to bring the overall level up. Then I convert the copied, higher level .wav to an .mp3 & I'm ready for uploading.

 

[RW James]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

You're not going to be able to get the same "mastered" sound by just tweaking the volume and gain on each track - or even on the master bus. It's more complicated than that.

Once again - for those of you with Sonar, you need to look at their Boost 11 product. Here is a video on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5K2RhXW0bM

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Mixing is a fun and very challenging job. I'm a complete n00b when it comes to this stuff, but the way I approach it is a) find the instrument or the riff that should stick out in a section, b) compress anything that sticks out too much in the mix (compression helps kinda "sink" the waveform into the rest of the mix) or anything that bounces around too wildly (bass is a big culprit, it can get pretty unwieldy if not taken care of) and c) EQ so that each instrument kinda has its own frequency to ring out clearly without stepping over other instruments tones.

Of course, all that stuff sound a lot easier than it really is. I've given up on trying to get super loud mixes because every time it gets to that point the music has really lost its charm (it's not fun to listen to something when it's LOUD, LOUD, LOUD with no dynamics). Sometimes I like a touch of compression in spots, but squishing anything really destroys the tone so you're not really getting anything positive out of it besides loud noise. I guess mixing and mastering is really "the art of compromise". It's finding what it is you want to bring out and how you can bury instrumentation without having the listener realize it.

So, after that entire rant... if you want loud mixes, it all comes down to understanding where your mix is getting it's energy from in the first place (different instruments share frequencies and they can cause clipping prematurely by doubling in intensity). After that, downward compress (that is, taking the loud transients down in db and bring the more quiet up in db) to where the levels are pretty steady. A lot of mastering engineers go for that heavy limiting to try to raise the entire mix up a few db. Some plugins/hardware are better for this from what I understand. I know one trick I've read about is sending a digital signal out to analog tape and back (analog clipping is a lot more forgiving than digital - that was one trick I read about in Bob Katz's mastering audio book) and some plugins are well known for getting pure volume such as the Waves L2 and the Sonnox Inflator (which is probably going to be my next purchase honestly).

Or... just listen to J Moose and take notes because he's a guy that's been doing this for a while and would know better than anyone else on this forum. :fing2:

 

[LunaticFringe]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Ok I screwed around and somehow fixed the problem. One final question: while going into windows volume control and then into 'recording' to check the levels there, I accidently clicked something that showed the disabled stuff and found this: "stereo mix" by realtek audio was disabled. Long shot but does anybody know if this should be on?

 

[LunaticFringe]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Ok, I didn't fix it like I thought, but I realized that I've been misstating the problem. What the issue is, is that I cant get the level high enough that it is JUST under the red. Know what I mean? Like, the highest I can get is halfway up the bar, well away from the point of clipping. I changed a few things that not only gave me a LITTLE more volume but also improved the tone (yay), but it's still way down in the green. I found some option in the windows sound options for a microphone boost and it really over-fixes the problem and I don't think it's the real source of the problem. I guess I could just turn the stereo up but I'd rather do it right.

 

[millsart]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Sounds like you need a better preamp for your input them. If your using some sort of built in windows device for your mic, and using a windows "mic boost" that sounds like your asking for problems, horrible noise floor, poor dynamic range etc

For $29 you can get something like the ART Tube MP which is a real nice preamp that can work for instruments or supply phantom power for condensor mic's and again, its $29.

Its really amazing what you can do with a $29 pre and a $50 large diaphram condesnor and some software these days.

Thats not to say its going to replace a full studio or gear, but its just lightyears ahead of what we used to have with fostex 4 tracks and such lol

 

[J Moose]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Are you using the stock computer sound card for recording?

If so you should get a "real" interface of some kind... one of the $150 Presonus or Emu; Maudio boxes would do 'ya well I think.

That... and I only have a vague idea of what 'yer doing! haha

If I were to start yakking about +4 vs. -10 and impedance, does that mean anything or not? Mic level vs. line level?

With digital recording, you really don't need to push anything up to the maximum level. That's actually WORSE for tracking. Leaving some headroom is good otherwise the master buss will be overloaded. Guitars, bass, vocals should average around -10dBfs on the input meter or even a bit lower. I'll have drums peak around -5 or so.

Then if you "need" more level you can stick a limiter on the master buss while mixing. Or better let, leave it off and deal with it in mastering unless it's a quick & dirty demo.

Ok, I didn't fix it like I thought, but I realized that I've been misstating the problem. What the issue is, is that I cant get the level high enough that it is JUST under the red. Know what I mean? Like, the highest I can get is halfway up the bar, well away from the point of clipping. I changed a few things that not only gave me a LITTLE more volume but also improved the tone (yay), but it's still way down in the green. I found some option in the windows sound options for a microphone boost and it really over-fixes the problem and I don't think it's the real source of the problem. I guess I could just turn the stereo up but I'd rather do it right.

 

[LunaticFringe]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

I can get the level to peak at -21, that's it.

Yeah, I'm using my computers sound card but christmas is coming up, partly why I'm trying to finally dive into this and figure out what I can do with what I have and thus what I need. When you say interface, what pioece of technology are you referring to? An external sound card? Here's some stuff I was looking at on musicians friend. Am I in the wrong ballpark? http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-Tube-PAC?sku=180069 http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-Tube-MP-Studio-Mic-Preamp?sku=180581

The whole -4/impedance thing I don't understand.

 

[CGord]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Just about every DAW application has a simple volume/gain control somewhere inside it... usually in the processes menu.

No reason to go outside the program for that, and the more you do that... and the more it's converted the worse it's going to sound. Especially if you're going from 24 bit files to something else... like Winamp probably knocks 'em down to 16... and then you go back again and it's all truncated...

Not so good.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7025046

I'm OK with it.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Peaking at -21 is way too low & yes... an interface is the same thing as an external sound card.

An external micamp won't do anything for you if it's plugged into the same crappy computer sound card because that's at least 90% of the problem. You need something like this; http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Inspire1394/

That'll give you a couple of micamps, line inputs + software... most likely everything you'd need to get some halfway decent tracks down.

I'd also recommend picking up a book on home recording to educate yourself about the differences between mic & line level, and interfacing all this stuff. The Yamaha guide to sound reinforcement is a bible, but maybe too deep. I couldn't tell 'ya what else is out there... go to a bookstore & flip through a couple.

Or, call Sweetwater and ask them to recommend something when you buy an interface.

I can get the level to peak at -21, that's it.

Yeah, I'm using my computers sound card but christmas is coming up, partly why I'm trying to finally dive into this and figure out what I can do with what I have and thus what I need. When you say interface, what pioece of technology are you referring to? An external sound card? Here's some stuff I was looking at on musicians friend. Am I in the wrong ballpark? http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-Tube-PAC?sku=180069 http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-Tube-MP-Studio-Mic-Preamp?sku=180581

The whole -4/impedance thing I don't understand.

 

[supernosher]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

I think this is the book that I first read (I'm not home right now), just a newer edition:

http://www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Musicians-Craig-Anderton/dp/0825615003/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Hope that helps.

 

[LunaticFringe]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Peaking at -21 is way too low & yes... an interface is the same thing as an external sound card.

An external micamp won't do anything for you if it's plugged into the same crappy computer sound card because that's at least 90% of the problem. You need something like this; http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Inspire1394/

That'll give you a couple of micamps, line inputs + software... most likely everything you'd need to get some halfway decent tracks down.

I'd also recommend picking up a book on home recording to educate yourself about the differences between mic & line level, and interfacing all this stuff. The Yamaha guide to sound reinforcement is a bible, but maybe too deep. I couldn't tell 'ya what else is out there... go to a bookstore & flip through a couple.

Or, call Sweetwater and ask them to recommend something when you buy an interface.

Man, your advice is godly. Much appreciated from a home recording noob. On a second note, would this presonus eliminate the need for the ART preamp. Ive seen some references on musicians friend to getting an ART tube preamp to warm it up a bit. I know that people on that site are usually full of **** though.

 

[supernosher]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Yes, the ART is a "mic amp" or "preamp", so it would eliminate the need for one. The PreSonus has 2 built-in.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Yup. I'd also wager that the Presonus preamps are going to sound as good, if not better then the ART.

That Craig Anderton book is probably pretty good. I had his electronic projects book years ago and it was fairly comprehensive & well written.

 

[LunaticFringe]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

Yup. I'd also wager that the Presonus preamps are going to sound as good, if not better then the ART.

That Craig Anderton book is probably pretty good. I had his electronic projects book years ago and it was fairly comprehensive & well written.

Beautiful. MF has it for the same 199 price, and has some scratch and dent for around $100. Think I might go for it.

While Im at it I might as well throw this one by you guys: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...tiPattern-FET-Studio-Condenser-Mic?sku=270624
Its gotta be a typo. $1000 off. What do you guys think. Thats a crazy deal if its legit.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

The main reason I'd suggest getting the interface from Sweetwater over anyone else is because they offer really excellent support. Putting a recording rig together isn't always easy (to understate it!) and if you run into problems you can call 'em up & they'll walk you through.

I highly doubt that mics $1000 off!!! The MXL's are Chinese built like a lot of other mics in that price range... I tried a few a long time ago and they all overloaded easily & went right back.

This should be better across a variety of sources; http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M3Rode/

Or the old standby NT1 - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NT1A/

So you have an SM58 or 57?

Beautiful. MF has it for the same 199 price, and has some scratch and dent for around $100. Think I might go for it.

While Im at it I might as well throw this one by you guys: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...tiPattern-FET-Studio-Condenser-Mic?sku=270624
Its gotta be a typo. $1000 off. What do you guys think. Thats a crazy deal if its legit.

 

[LunaticFringe]

Re: Can't Record Loud Enough

I highly doubt that mics $1000 off!!! The MXL's are Chinese built like a lot of other mics in that price range... I tried a few a long time ago and they all overloaded easily & went right back.

ROFL! Yeah, I did a double take when I saw it.

I was going to ask for an SM57 for christmas. As far as I understand, they are like, THE beginner mic. To be honest, at this point I really only need a mic that is good for vocals as I can't see myself mic'ing an amp for awhile. God I hate apartments.