Capacitor value?

Re: Capacitor value?

Talking about impedance 6.8k isn't just only resistance of the bobin measured with an ohmmeter ?
impedance includes also inductance i'm not surethose 6.8k reflects indeed, if i remember well inductance of the pickup then impedance varies with frequencies generated by the strings.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

Can you elaborate please? Show me where my mistakes are. I'm very curious.

Also, where did I mention that I haven't tried these other cap values? I read back over my post and I couldn't find that.

It's fairly obvious.

See the values I suggested for various pickup types. Solder in the caps. Keep in mind the frequency response of actual guitar amps and speakers. Use your ears. Do you still think you're numbers are accurate?

I doubt you'll do it though, some people would rather waste time typing than actually listening.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Can you elaborate please? Show me where my mistakes are. I'm very curious.

Also, where did I mention that I haven't tried these other cap values? I read back over my post and I couldn't find that.



It's fairly obvious.

See the values I suggested for various pickup types. Solder in the caps. Keep in mind the frequency response of actual guitar amps and speakers. Use your ears. Do you still think you're numbers are accurate?

I doubt you'll do it though, some people would rather waste time typing than actually listening.

What are you talking about here?

Who are you quoting in your post and from where? I don't see any quote like that in this thread.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

Previous page?!

There are only 18 posts and only one page to this thread.

You must be replying to a different thread.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

I don't get it.

I don't have anyone blocked that I'm aware of (I don't even know how to block anyone).

And now there are only 20 posts, so there cannot be a second page yet.

I have never, ever had a problem seeing everything in the past 5 years.

So tell me, who were you quoting in your post at 7:07 am today, post #16. I'm curious.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

It's fairly obvious.

See the values I suggested for various pickup types. Solder in the caps. Keep in mind the frequency response of actual guitar amps and speakers. Use your ears. Do you still think you're numbers are accurate?

I doubt you'll do it though, some people would rather waste time typing than actually listening.

Yes, I am certain my numbers are accurate. If they weren't, no electronic device on Earth would work properly. The guys who chose those .022 and .047 caps back in the day used the same formula I did to figure out what to put in your guitar. So did everyone else who's ever built a passive low pass filter.

And no, of course I'm not interested in testing a theory that it took me less than five minutes to disprove on paper. THAT is the definition of a time wasting activity.

Look, I get it ... math and science weren't your strong suits. And I get that people like you write this kind of thing off out of hand because you've trained yourself to believe that people like me are just being belligerent and arguing with you for no reason. Fact is though, you're not just disagreeing with the people in this thread - you're disagreeing with something called Ohm's Law. The guys who designed your guitars, amps, and pedals are very familiar with it. If they weren't, none of your gear would work. Neither would your stereo, your TV, or your computer.

If you can come up with any way to tell me I'm wrong other than "you just have to try it and see", please do post it.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

Lol I design amp circuits you putz, I know the math.

Ohms law has what to do with caps again? Exactly.

That your numbers are wrong are easily proven, you are just so scared to find out how wrong you are that you wont take 10 minutes to actually solder a cap into a circuit to find out.

That is priceless lol.

Once again, put in a .0022uf for single humbuckers, .0047 for single single coil. Roll the tone control down. Keep in mind that guitar amps/speakers produce very little over 5k. Listen to the result.

If you can't hear that your numbers are wrong, you'd have to be completely deaf, at least in the high frequencies. That may in fact be the case. You probably got that way by beating your head against the wall swearing your calculations on paper were correct instead of performing a simple experiment.

There are more things in heaven and earth than drempt of in your philosophy. There are very subtle things that happen in a circuit that can be both heard and felt, and I'm sure you wouldn't have a clue as to why, but I'm also sure you'd plug the wrong numbers into some equation you found on the net and swear it wasn't so without actually listening to the result.

That's why we do experiments in science, because all the math means dick unless you can prove it and it holds up to experimental rigor. Only someone who was scared sh*tless to find out they were wrong and was too scared to deal with it and re-think their theories would refuse to perform a simple, fast experiment.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

Should I start with your stomping your foot and screaming "ohm's law" which has nothing to do with an RC calculation? V=IR. I don't see a "C" in there.

I'll also tell you that a .0022uf on a '59 starts to roll off well under 10k, actually more like 1/4 of that.

A tone control on a guitar plugged into an amp is a more complicated circuit than you think. I'll let you figure out why.

The fact that you think that calculation is accurate, your screaming about ohm's law which isn't an issue here, and your other commentary tell me:

1) You don't understand what you're talking about, although you were smart enough to look up knee frequency calculation for a low pass filter and plug in numbers, so points for that at least, even though you make a lot of incorrect assumptions in doing so,

2) You haven't actually listened to the a variety of cap values on different pickups to see what they actually do, so you're arguing from a point of pure ignorance. Why you'd want to do that baffles me, most people are at least smart enough to, for instance, not argue about the tone of pickups they haven't actually ever heard or used. But some people will argue anything because a little net knowledge is troll food.

Try using your ears and listening instead of looking up things you don't understand on the net and thinking that is a substitute for real world experience. You'd be surprised what you might learn.

So again, my recommendation to anyone with a "what cap value" question is to get some caps and aligator clips and clip them in and figure out what you actually like, not what some internet guru who actually has no idea what those sound like tells you that you should like. There is nothing magical about .047uf or .022uf. I found that much, much smaller caps work for me in actual playing situations to get what I like, and pretty much everyone who I've done cap switches for has come up liking something other than the 'standard' values. Joel Dantzig liked .01uf, half the size of 'standard'. I guess he was nuts to? Throw those Hamers in the trash!

.022uf, when it is actually doing much that is noticeable, i.e. about 1-3 on the knob, I find to be far too dark to be of use in any band situation. The only time I've found that tone useful was with two single coils in parallel, but then I like .01uf better there. On a lone single coil or on any humbucker, too much high end is lost. The effects are very subtle above 3 on the knob, but I've found even then that too much pick attack information gets lost and not much noticeable 'tonal' effect, so if you are a 'shredder' and pick fast all it is going to do is annoy you with thuddy pick attack and not really provide much audible roll off. Smaller caps leave more information in the high end.

If you are really sure you like a big assed cap, then use it. But please don't post a "wtf" response when I say try smaller values unless you've actually done it and KNOW what the actual sound is.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

.022uf, when it is actually doing much that is noticeable, i.e. about 1-3 on the knob, I find to be far too dark to be of use in any band situation. The only time I've found that tone useful was with two single coils in parallel, but then I like .01uf better there. On a lone single coil or on any humbucker, too much high end is lost. The effects are very subtle above 3 on the knob, but I've found even then that too much pick attack information gets lost and not much noticeable 'tonal' effect, so if you are a 'shredder' and pick fast all it is going to do is annoy you with thuddy pick attack and not really provide much audible roll off. Smaller caps leave more information in the high end.

If you are really sure you like a big assed cap, then use it. But please don't post a "wtf" response when I say try smaller values unless you've actually done it and KNOW what the actual sound is.

I can't speak for ratherdashing, but I have tried many different values of caps in all of my guitars (25 - 30 guitars) and have found that, indeed, a .047uf loses too much tone quality (highs and mids) as the tone pot is rolled down. I generally like the .022uf cap because it mostly just reduces the highs leaving the mids intact. Generally, this is what guitar players want to happen when they roll off the tone pot...to remove the highs. I find that a .015uf can be very pleasant in some guitars with some pups, in that it only removes the upper highs. This is all that may be wanted in a really bright guitar with bright pups. A .010uf cap only reduces the high highs, the effect hardly even noticeable, especially "in a band situation". I can see where some players may want that effect, but for most people, the .010uf doesn't have enough affect on the tone to make it very useful (although, I have to admit that I have .010uf caps in a couple of my guitars).

You are suggesting .0022uf caps as the largest value that should be considered.

ARE YOU NUTS?!

You talk about usefullness "in a band situation", but a .0022uf cap or less on a 500k ohm tone pot will not make an audible difference on your tone (unless you're only trying to get rid of some background "hiss" as you roll down the "tone" pot). But "hiss" isn't even noticeable when you are actually playing...even by yourself, let alone with a band.


There is a reason why guitar manufacturers use .047uf and .022uf caps on their guitars...they want their tone controls to actually be useful so they don't get so many complaints and returns from their customers. I, like many, agree that .047uf is overkill, but if Gibson or Fender or PRS or etc, etc, etc were to put .0022uf or .0010uf caps on their guitars, every one of them would be returned by the buyers claiming that the guitars are defective because the tone knobs don't work.
 
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Re: Capacitor value?

Should I start with your stomping your foot and screaming "ohm's law" which has nothing to do with an RC calculation? V=IR. I don't see a "C" in there.

I'll also tell you that a .0022uf on a '59 starts to roll off well under 10k, actually more like 1/4 of that.

A tone control on a guitar plugged into an amp is a more complicated circuit than you think. I'll let you figure out why.

The fact that you think that calculation is accurate, your screaming about ohm's law which isn't an issue here, and your other commentary tell me:

1) You don't understand what you're talking about, although you were smart enough to look up knee frequency calculation for a low pass filter and plug in numbers, so points for that at least, even though you make a lot of incorrect assumptions in doing so,

2) You haven't actually listened to the a variety of cap values on different pickups to see what they actually do, so you're arguing from a point of pure ignorance. Why you'd want to do that baffles me, most people are at least smart enough to, for instance, not argue about the tone of pickups they haven't actually ever heard or used. But some people will argue anything because a little net knowledge is troll food.

Try using your ears and listening instead of looking up things you don't understand on the net and thinking that is a substitute for real world experience. You'd be surprised what you might learn.

So again, my recommendation to anyone with a "what cap value" question is to get some caps and aligator clips and clip them in and figure out what you actually like, not what some internet guru who actually has no idea what those sound like tells you that you should like. There is nothing magical about .047uf or .022uf. I found that much, much smaller caps work for me in actual playing situations to get what I like, and pretty much everyone who I've done cap switches for has come up liking something other than the 'standard' values. Joel Dantzig liked .01uf, half the size of 'standard'. I guess he was nuts to? Throw those Hamers in the trash!

.022uf, when it is actually doing much that is noticeable, i.e. about 1-3 on the knob, I find to be far too dark to be of use in any band situation. The only time I've found that tone useful was with two single coils in parallel, but then I like .01uf better there. On a lone single coil or on any humbucker, too much high end is lost. The effects are very subtle above 3 on the knob, but I've found even then that too much pick attack information gets lost and not much noticeable 'tonal' effect, so if you are a 'shredder' and pick fast all it is going to do is annoy you with thuddy pick attack and not really provide much audible roll off. Smaller caps leave more information in the high end.

If you are really sure you like a big assed cap, then use it. But please don't post a "wtf" response when I say try smaller values unless you've actually done it and KNOW what the actual sound is.

I posted an equation plus calculations of corner frequencies. So far all you've posted amounts to "you're wrong because I said so." At least now you've acknowledged that this is the correct equation, but you still haven't explained where I made my error, in spite of repeated invitations to do so.

RE: Ohm's Law ... that's where the equation I posted is derived from. Nearly every electrical engineering equation has something to do with Ohm's Law because it is so fundamental. It's a bit troubling that someone who designs amp circuits doesn't know this, but I guess anything's possible. Instead of saying "I'll let you figure that out" I'll actually explain what I mean, in case anyone wants to know:

A capacitor can be thought of as a temporary container of electricity. It can store a finite amount of electricity before it releases it. The amount of electricity it can store is rated in Farads.

A Farad (the unit of capacitance) is the charge in coulombs required to change the potential across the capacitor by one volt.

A coulomb = 1 amp per second; a measure of charge over time.

Therefore, the formula for a capacitor is: F = (As)/V where F is Farads, A is the charge in amps, s is the time in seconds, and V is the voltage.

Knowing this and Ohm's Law (V = IR), we can derive many equations that govern capacitors in electronic circuits, including the one I posted earlier:

fil41.gif


It's pretty much impossible to present derivations on a forum, but here's a website (Duke University, in fact) that does a good job of explaining how the formula above is derived:

Part 1: http://people.ee.duke.edu/~cec/final/node110.html
Part 2: http://people.ee.duke.edu/~cec/final/node111.html


As for practical experience, your assumption that I've never tried small value caps in a guitar is incorrect. Six years ago I built a tone cap selector on a rotary switch that I installed in a Warmoth LP. It switched between the following cap values: .002, .010, .022, .047, and .068. The .002 had no audible effect until the knob was at zero, and even then it was barely noticeable. I eventually removed the rotary control and stuck a .022 in there. I wish I had done the math back then to save myself the trouble.

When you go and post things that a. go completely against common wisdom on the subject, and b. go completely against actual science, then the burden of proof is on you, not the people disagreeing with you (see Russell's Teapot).

I have said all I can on this subject. I've shown how to calculate the effective frequency response of a guitar's tone control. I've cited personal experience. If anyone has any specific questions or comments about anything I've posted, please go ahead. I won't respond to any "you're wrong because I said so" posts again. It's pointless.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

You are suggesting .0022uf caps as the largest value that should be considered.

ARE YOU NUTS?!

You talk about usefullness "in a band situation", but a .0022uf cap or less on a 500k ohm tone pot will not make an audible difference on your tone (unless you're only trying to get rid of some background "hiss" as you roll down the "tone" pot). But "hiss" isn't even noticeable when you are actually playing...even by yourself, let alone with a band.


I think you need to re-read what I said.

I also can't account for your hearing, but a humbucker with 500k and a .0022uf is VERY noticeable, unless you're high end hearing is gone anyway? It's sure a whole lot more than "removing hiss".

The following are roughly equivalent in aural affect:

Single humbucker: .0022uf
2 Humbuckers in parallel .0047uf
Single Single coil: .0047uf
2 single coils in parallel: .01uf

Repeated from above, but there it is again since you either didn't read what I said, or your reading comprehension skills need work.

Also, I never said .0022uf is the maximum value that should be used. Again, your reading comprehension skills are....inadequate. Read my first post, and the one above. I suggested using a variety of caps to find what you like, and suggested those as what I like.

The .002 had no audible effect until the knob was at zero, and even then it was barely noticeable. I eventually removed the rotary control and stuck a .022 in there. I wish I had done the math back then to save myself the trouble.

On what pickup? Again, read what I said.

You aren't wrong because I said so, you're wrong because you're wrong. Again, you looked up some calcs on the web which you don't understand and mis-applied them.

Here's a hint: A pickup is not a resistor. It has a DC resistance that can be measured in ohms, but that does not make it electronically equivalent to a resistor. Don't think so?

Then according to your calculations, a .0047uf cap would have roughly the same affect on a 7k single coil as a 7k humbucker. Except it doesn't. Or the same affect on a Super 3 as an HS-4, which have comparable DCR. After all, according to you, a pickup is just a DC resistance and that tells the whole story right?

Except anyone who tries that will find it simply isn't true, is demonstrably UNTRUE, but you won't actually listen because you're too scared to try it and find out you're wrong. Got it.

As far as Ohm's law and derivations of it, that formula you posted (which only applies to a passive RC network, NOT to the situation at hand) is a derivation of that in the same way calculus is a derivation of simple arithmatic. There is a lot of light in between those things, but nice try in covering up for your not knowing that.

Alls I can say guys, is I can prove it, in person. I'll even throw money on the table. You are welcome to come by, have a beer, and put your dollars on the table with mine, then see what is audible.

Care to put your money where your typing is?

I've shown how to calculate the effective frequency response of a guitar's tone control.

Yes, incorrectly. Look at some other site's if you want to see accurate graphs or calculations.

They aren't exactly all over the web, but here's an example:
http://www.stellartone.com/files/Eq_Chart_4-742.pdf

Now look at the chart on the left. The tonestyler has caps that range from about 250pf to .022uf. The 10k figure you claim for .0022uf is actually about right for 250pf. ~.0022uf is the 8th position on a tonestyler. This diagram shows that roll off starting under 2.5khz.

But you know more than the guy who invented that right? Because you looked up some electronic things you don't understand on the web?

Even those charts don't show the whole story, but they are a lot closer to what someone can expect aurally than the numbers you posted.
 
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Re: Capacitor value?

Ray...

I think it's about time you give it a rest.

You are wrong because I said so.

Oh no, wait, I meant... you are wrong because you are wrong. Because the affect of a .0022uf cap on a 500k tone pot in a guitar in a band will NOT be noticed by any human ears...even your super ears.

You are now officially on my ignore list.

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".


.
 
Re: Capacitor value?

Just opened it, I mislead on the cap I use, it's 0.001uf (2A102J printed).

Still under the pretended not earable barrier, lower than .0022uf. It replaced the original 0.033uf (1h333j printed) I never never used because too dull for me.

Just try with a treebly pickup, it's just obvious.
 
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