Capacitors

[toowrongfoo]

Re: Capacitors

First of all just play and don't make yourself nuts over minutia

All of this stuff should be done for fun and inquisitively, you'll find the pieces that make your sound yours and the things that make you, you. That's all.

There are never ending quests, obsessions etc. Don't get so hung up on any of it that it screws your head up.

W/O question. But let's be realistic, it is our SWORN DUTY to dig for tone. No river is too wide, no ocean too deep :lol:

 

[Mincer]

Re: Capacitors

You wouldn't believe how much people are willing to pay for capacitors. But I think any industry has its share of 'snake oil' for people wanting the shortest path to the top of the mountain.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Capacitors

My feeling is that everything makes a difference, it's just whether you:
A. Can hear it
B. Care about it

I've never messed with type of cap, only value. I figure I'm happy with Orange Drops, so I'll keep using them. Since I can hear the difference and care, I'll try different values when I'm changing pickups or building a guitar. In the end I agree with Wattage, it's all about playing music with a tone you love.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Capacitors

My feeling is that everything makes a difference, it's just whether you:
A. Can hear it
B. Care about it

I've never messed with type of cap, only value. I figure I'm happy with Orange Drops, so I'll keep using them. Since I can hear the difference and care, I'll try different values when I'm changing pickups or building a guitar. In the end I agree with Wattage, it's all about playing music with a tone you love.

I think that’s part of my issue....I’m still trying to perfect my tone. I’m oh sooooo close. Lol

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Capacitors

It's all about variance... You might find a holy Grail cap in a vintage instrument, but what that really means is the cap is out of spec and that works on that particular instrument.

Of course the variance can go the wrong direction as well, so it's silly to buy vintage and imagine that a single cap will work perfect... Either buy a bunch and try them out or measure the variance and reproduce with modern components... Ie if an old cap is leaking and that gives the sound you want, reproduce with a modern cap and resister and you don't have to worry about the vintage continuing to degrade and save a ton of money.

The science is pretty clear...I've been wanting to do a doubleBlind study to prove it, but here's a study that's pretty close... http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Capacitors

My feeling is that everything makes a difference, it's just whether you:
A. Can hear it
B. Care about it

I've never messed with type of cap, only value. I figure I'm happy with Orange Drops, so I'll keep using them. Since I can hear the difference and care, I'll try different values when I'm changing pickups or building a guitar. In the end I agree with Wattage, it's all about playing music with a tone you love.

Of course there's a difference between cap values.

 

[Hopkinwfg]

Re: Capacitors

There a saying that the dielectric materials will makes difference too... seen a guy who compares a mallory 150 to an orange drop of same value... the mallory 150 sounds warmer thus the orange cap sound more hifi more modern more clinical.. think the orange cap was 715P polyproplyene.... the orange 225P will sound warmer as they says it a polyester cap... dont know how it works for guitar tone cap...

 

[AlexR]

Re: Capacitors

There are minor (very minor) differences in the filtering effect of caps with differing materials. It has been tested with caps of the actual same value but different dielectric type - and with oscilloscope precision.

Its likely something not heard too often.....and unless you are running a very pure signal chain (vintage strength quality pickups, straight into vintage type amp) it will be hard to tell.

 

[mst]

Re: Capacitors

I recently had the PCB in my 2012 LP removed and replaced with standard type wiring. The tech put in Orange Drop caps.
So 2 questions:

1) what type of tonal difference do PIO caps make?
Obviously bumblebee caps, Mallory etc have achieved cult status....what makes them superior?
I also know that someone will say that when your tone control is wide open the caps have no affect on the tone while others will say that it will affect the tone since it’s in the signal path....what’s the deal there?

2) will the capacitor have any effect on the taper of the pots?
I ordered pots from rsguitarworks...whatever their super pot is. It’s got a smooth taper but I’d like it to taper off a little faster than it does. The old pots from the PCB were a faster taper and I liked that.

Ok, more than 2 questions. Lol

My answers to your questions are:

1) sound wins, but also "mojo" is important with guitar players. Mallory caps and orange drops are extremely durable and manufactured extremely well. Their tolerances are different as well. keep in mind that all this mojo is originated from amp building and electronics ( is there that these components make all the difference, since there is hundreds). IMHO, better quality and look in built are things that are to be kept in mind but at the end, sound wins. I do my treble bleed with extremely cheap 0.002 cap and not for the cost. Beacuse they are built awesomely well and because they are little ( an orange drop is as big as half a pot almost) ans o they fit cavities. But at the end of the day, when I turn that pot, I want the sweetest bass response and zero muddyness. And i have that!

2) I agree with you but I think the caps have zero effect on the taper. At least this is my experience. Caps are inserted between the taper but at the end is jus the taper itself to determine how quick it will close. Even high regarded pots can have a not so nice curve. My choice is, here too, sound. And in my opinion the japanese made pots with the smaller shaft are the best in "curve". I use a Logarithmic on volume and the curve is very nice and usable!

 

[Zombiwoof]

Re: Capacitors

In the treble bleed mod that includes a resistor and cap, the resistor changes the taper, not the cap. If the taper is OK to you, but you need to reduce the treble loss only, just use a cap there. I had to do extensive testing of cap and resistor values to get the taper right and reduce the treble loss on a '66 Fender XII I got years ago for only $400 (it's a sunburst that looks just like the one that Townsend used in the early days, and the one Page used on the studio version of "Stairway", with the hockey-stick headstock). When stock there was severe treble rolloff even turning volume down one number from 10, and also an abrupt change in volume as you turned it down. I used test leads with alligator clips to test different values of each till I got the exact right combination of cap and resistor to correct these issues. I also seem to see people confusing caps in treble bleeds and tone caps in this thread in some cases.

Al

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Capacitors

You wouldn't believe how much people are willing to pay for capacitors. But I think any industry has its share of 'snake oil' for people wanting the shortest path to the top of the mountain.

We try to turn this conversation around with education and positive reinforcement- when we get a $200 bumblebee request, most of the time the musician has been playing just long enough to understand they don't have the tone they want, but they haven't learned signal chains, pickup variation or wiring-

When we refocus on 'what sound are you really after', it usually brings us back to the pups, wiring, fx and amps and we usually get significant (easily measured) improvements for the same or less $.

Of course 90% of good tone is in fingers and experience configuring whatever you've got and we teach lessons as well

And, we do have an occasional guru who wants to audition vintage, they don't need education and we don't mind bringing them in as long as they have the $

 

[Mincer]

Re: Capacitors

We try to turn this conversation around with education and positive reinforcement- when we get a $200 bumblebee request, most of the time the musician has been playing just long enough to understand they don't have the tone they want, but they haven't learned signal chains, pickup variation or wiring-

When we refocus on 'what sound are you really after', it usually brings us back to the pups, wiring, fx and amps and we usually get significant (easily measured) improvements for the same or less $.

Of course 90% of good tone is in fingers and experience configuring whatever you've got and we teach lessons as well

And, we do have an occasional guru who wants to audition vintage, they don't need education and we don't mind bringing them in as long as they have the $

Hey, that's what drives most of the industry, right? But most of the industry isn't made up of professionals or people that have actually done these tests. I was in the retail business before, so I totally get it. And some people, no matter what, can't be educated- we've all met those.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Capacitors

But most of the industry isn't made up of professionals or people that have actually done these tests.

Mincer, you are perfectly in tune this morning- while you were writing these words I was in a conference call wearing my other hat (business analysis) and we were trying to estimate the number of sales people who sell based off of knowledge (as opposed to personality and snake oil).

For the industries we are targeting, we estimated 30% of sales folks actually know product, benefits and value add for a specific customer. My guess is that it's even lower with audio, but either way, you nailed it.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Capacitors

Well, I don't want to give the impression that the industry preys on suckers (although some in the industry do). I think with anything, a well-informed customer is ideal. But I worked in a store long enough to see the difference. Ideally, the best products can be easily recognized by everyone, the pro and amateur alike.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Capacitors

yeah. nah.
It is mostly snake oil.
Orange drops are as good as anything else.
People are suckers and marketing works.
The PIO ones look nice, but seeing as all that stuff is under the hood none of that matters.

"Mostly snake oil" implies that it's not 100% snake oil.

I think that there is an extremely small difference in sound between PIO, ceramic and plastic caps but that the vast majority of players cannot actually hear that difference.

Sometimes I think that I can sense a difference...but I can't actually hear a difference.

Especially not with my 68 year old ears.

 

[Diego]

Re: Capacitors

I don't even know what any of my guitars has when it comes to caps.

I know some of them could use a treble bleed of sorts, but other than that... I've got nothing.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Capacitors

Maybe, we can sum the thread up with 'whatever sounds good works' reinforced with the following quotes:

"I don't even know what any of my guitars has when it comes to caps."

"Ideally, the best products can be easily recognized by everyone, the pro and amateur alike."

 

[Wattage]

Re: Capacitors

The only reason to pay crazy money for caps IMO is to complete and restore a vintage instrument. I always try to put good components in to a guitar I work on or own but beyond a few dollars for a cap I find it hard to justify unless someone has a very specific request that is otherwise reasonable.

That said the Eric Johnsons of the world may feel differently.:knockedou