CC, C5 to Fillmore bridge
- Thread starter Lightning
- Start date
Regarding DA's Fillmore East sound:
He played thru a Marshall 50W bass head.
He used JBL D120s in a half-open backed cab. I wouldn't argue with Twiggs (God rest his soul) He was a nice guy when I met him. So maybe he was right about it being open. I've never read or heard that, and I've read accounts by other guys that worked with the band that say differently.
DA didn't use a fuzzface at the Fillmore. That rumor has pretty much been put to bed. I don't hear a fuzzface on those recordings. I hear a 50W marshall bass head, dimed...thru 4 JBL D120s. Compare that tone to Betts'...playing thru a 100W Marshall into JBL E120s. His tone is cleaner, not as driven. I'm not aware of Betts ever using D120s, then or now. D120s have a very pronounced midrange honk. They are probably as much a part of that DA tone people are chasing as anything else in the signal path. Unmolested D120s are getting hard to find. Ted Weber sells nice recones at a reasonable price, and they sound nice once they're broken in.
The Fillmores are a really fine pup. Their versatility is overlooked, largely due to the way they have been marketed. Personally, I don't care if they do the DA thing or not (I can get close enough without a whole lot of fussin' around), because they do a lot of other things extremely well. IMHO, these pups really shine when you start twisting the knobs on your guitar. I've never played a pup that had so many good tones from about anywhere you set the knobs. That's pretty cool, and pretty unusual in my experience, at least. With good pots and caps, these are a remarkable pup that defy the stereotype I've always had about hot-wound pups. The more I use them the more I appreciate what they can do.
He played thru a Marshall 50W bass head.
He used JBL D120s in a half-open backed cab. I wouldn't argue with Twiggs (God rest his soul) He was a nice guy when I met him. So maybe he was right about it being open. I've never read or heard that, and I've read accounts by other guys that worked with the band that say differently.
DA didn't use a fuzzface at the Fillmore. That rumor has pretty much been put to bed. I don't hear a fuzzface on those recordings. I hear a 50W marshall bass head, dimed...thru 4 JBL D120s. Compare that tone to Betts'...playing thru a 100W Marshall into JBL E120s. His tone is cleaner, not as driven. I'm not aware of Betts ever using D120s, then or now. D120s have a very pronounced midrange honk. They are probably as much a part of that DA tone people are chasing as anything else in the signal path. Unmolested D120s are getting hard to find. Ted Weber sells nice recones at a reasonable price, and they sound nice once they're broken in.
The Fillmores are a really fine pup. Their versatility is overlooked, largely due to the way they have been marketed. Personally, I don't care if they do the DA thing or not (I can get close enough without a whole lot of fussin' around), because they do a lot of other things extremely well. IMHO, these pups really shine when you start twisting the knobs on your guitar. I've never played a pup that had so many good tones from about anywhere you set the knobs. That's pretty cool, and pretty unusual in my experience, at least. With good pots and caps, these are a remarkable pup that defy the stereotype I've always had about hot-wound pups. The more I use them the more I appreciate what they can do.
F
Falstaff
Guest
Great thread, gentlemen!
Tweed: how many models of JBL were there? Have you ever tried Weber's "California" speaker?
Tweed: how many models of JBL were there? Have you ever tried Weber's "California" speaker?
Falstaff said:
Lots of JBL models in the 60's. I haven't played Weber's California, but I spoke to him once about it, and decided to get a D120 recone. I don't recall everything he said, but the California uses a 2" voice coil, where the D120 uses a 4".
Here's a link to a Plexi Palace forum thread that talks a lot about various JBLs. It goes round and round. Have some Tylenol handy. If you weed thru it, there is some good info: http://vintageamps.com/PlexiPalaceUBBcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000370;p=1
Additional JBL info: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/1960s.htm
I re-read my previous post and need to correct myself (I need to be sleeping more). Betts, from anything I've read, used D120s with his Plexi during the Fillmore shows. He did switch later on to a different JBL speaker. I'm thinking D130s, but I can't remember. There is speculation about all of this stuff. Some say his Plexi was modded to boost the treble, blah blah blah. We'll probably never know. Some say DA used a 50W Plexi. Everyone chooses what they want to believe or not believe. From my reading, I'm convinced it was a bass head.
Seymour has played DA's Hot 'Lanta. He feels that the pups were stock PAFs. Far be it from me to argue with him. Nobody alive knows more about PAFs than Seymour. But the story about that guitars' pups is that they came from a SG, and were rewound hot. I don't think Jim Wagner would lie to anyone about his conversation with the guy who did the rewind, which led to his making the Fillmore pup. So, who's right? I dunno. Doesn't much matter to me either. The Fillmores are much more in the PAF-range tone-wise than what I would expect to hear with a wind in the 12k-13k range...very strange. They don't hit the front end of an amp the way you would expect. So maybe there's something to it. I'm no expert. But I have decent ears, and I know what I hear. And there's more to a pup's sound than just DC resistance anyway. Wagner's potting recipe is something akin to Colonel Sanders'...he doesn't talk about it.
F
Falstaff
Guest
Thank you, sir! I agree with you about the Fillmores, too...really good pickups.
Lightning
New member
Responce
Responce
Paper Soul,
Couple of questions. Do you like Ty Tabor's tone (King's X)? The opening power cords of "The Hollow" (APC)?
Loud,
Ditto to your last long post.
I don't know why you responded "No" to the mids but I can't, cause I use 3 guitars a night. A maple/mahogany (Loud we know what this one is suppose to sound like), a fender like guitar, vintage bucker in the neck and a JB/DD in the rear (Note: after eq-ing the amps for any of the Duane wana be pickups/guitars I use, this guitar automatically sounds brite and that's good as long as no re-eq'ing is required), and a slide guitar (mahogany).
Sorry if I'm being vague but I'm changing pickups in 7 guitars all the time trying to get them balanced.
Signal chain: Wah, AB, each leg off AB gets chorus and delay.
Responce
Paper Soul,
Couple of questions. Do you like Ty Tabor's tone (King's X)? The opening power cords of "The Hollow" (APC)?
Loud,
Ditto to your last long post.
I don't know why you responded "No" to the mids but I can't, cause I use 3 guitars a night. A maple/mahogany (Loud we know what this one is suppose to sound like), a fender like guitar, vintage bucker in the neck and a JB/DD in the rear (Note: after eq-ing the amps for any of the Duane wana be pickups/guitars I use, this guitar automatically sounds brite and that's good as long as no re-eq'ing is required), and a slide guitar (mahogany).
Sorry if I'm being vague but I'm changing pickups in 7 guitars all the time trying to get them balanced.
Signal chain: Wah, AB, each leg off AB gets chorus and delay.
Lightning
New member
Responce
Responce
Tweed,
Betts says "JBL Lansing 120's" is his current speaker type. http://www.musicianshotline.com/archive/interviews/****ey_betts1.htm
I spent 3 hours with Twiggs, that Sunday morning after a Dregs show in 76. I was 17. Twiggs woke Steve up and ask him to hand him "The Guitar". I have 3 pics of me and Duane's LP 3. One is me playing Am9 no root (liz chord) and pointing to the scratch that identifies the instrument, Two is me playing Em9 representing Duane's' gift of jazz us, and the third is me and Twiggs head bowed over the guitar.
Translation and my memory could serve as deficiencies here but I did have a player friend/Duane Freak with me and I should call him to confirm the JBL model #. He ask the question and Twigg's responded "They both use JBL XXXX but Duane removed the backs." I knew my friend Marc would remember the model #.
I plowed forward with the questions. Did he use a Fuzz? "He had a few pedals but his main source of distortion was the amp, it was modified by a guy in Atlanta" Who "I don't know Duane had it done." Do you know the name of the shop
No...someplace in Atlanta (be cool chuck). When you say modified you mean master volume "They did a master volume, but they did some other stuff too." Duane's distortion sounds like an emulation of Coltrane's sax, a lot more distorted than just a master volume, do you think the rest of the distortion came from the pedal "No...the distortion mostly came from the amp...he just like to play with the pedals...I didn't think they made that much of a difference...sometimes he didn't even use them."
I don't believe I could recall that 2 minutes that well, I couldn't even repeat that verbally 2 minutes from now, but that's what was said among 3 hours of slam packed AAB trivia.
It took me 2 1/2 hours to lead up to it. When I first jumped up on the running board of the truck I said "Do you really have Duane's guitar and he just stared at me an didn't respond. So I proceeded to explain to him why it was important to me to see it for the next hour and he listened the only thing he said is I got to get something to eat and would you like an RC (cola).
Then he opened up filling in the gaps of what I didn't know, even answering questions I'd ask that he hadn't answered in the order I had ask them.
He talked steady that hour, he explained how he was the second member to join the Duane Allman Band (this was the name of the band as Phil Waldron had been instructed to draw the contract an wasn't changed till Duane's burial a year after his death).
Tweed, You are right, the type head is sorta irrelevant, but not just what we want to believe, but cause the schematic's tell us so, the real question here is what value cathode caps were used in the mod (if it was indeed a four gain mod) because that has 98% effect of the tone.
I do realize you talking about a mid pass to ground and that notch is more significant than a mere 2%, Tweed Dude, I don't know, I gave up, when that filter cap under the ckt board on my JMP (MV and 4 gain mods, and 6 stabs at cathode caps) went, I gave up.
I had gotten as close as Blue Sky and the Duane Fillmore prominent lower octave and other harmonic's had to be the reflection off the brick wall coming from the open back cabinets.
All those years I used open backs I had to be 7 inches off the wall, I was convinced this was Duane's placement on the Fillmore album.
Responce
Tweed,
Betts says "JBL Lansing 120's" is his current speaker type. http://www.musicianshotline.com/archive/interviews/****ey_betts1.htm
I spent 3 hours with Twiggs, that Sunday morning after a Dregs show in 76. I was 17. Twiggs woke Steve up and ask him to hand him "The Guitar". I have 3 pics of me and Duane's LP 3. One is me playing Am9 no root (liz chord) and pointing to the scratch that identifies the instrument, Two is me playing Em9 representing Duane's' gift of jazz us, and the third is me and Twiggs head bowed over the guitar.
Translation and my memory could serve as deficiencies here but I did have a player friend/Duane Freak with me and I should call him to confirm the JBL model #. He ask the question and Twigg's responded "They both use JBL XXXX but Duane removed the backs." I knew my friend Marc would remember the model #.
I plowed forward with the questions. Did he use a Fuzz? "He had a few pedals but his main source of distortion was the amp, it was modified by a guy in Atlanta" Who "I don't know Duane had it done." Do you know the name of the shop
No...someplace in Atlanta (be cool chuck). When you say modified you mean master volume "They did a master volume, but they did some other stuff too." Duane's distortion sounds like an emulation of Coltrane's sax, a lot more distorted than just a master volume, do you think the rest of the distortion came from the pedal "No...the distortion mostly came from the amp...he just like to play with the pedals...I didn't think they made that much of a difference...sometimes he didn't even use them."
I don't believe I could recall that 2 minutes that well, I couldn't even repeat that verbally 2 minutes from now, but that's what was said among 3 hours of slam packed AAB trivia.
It took me 2 1/2 hours to lead up to it. When I first jumped up on the running board of the truck I said "Do you really have Duane's guitar and he just stared at me an didn't respond. So I proceeded to explain to him why it was important to me to see it for the next hour and he listened the only thing he said is I got to get something to eat and would you like an RC (cola).
Then he opened up filling in the gaps of what I didn't know, even answering questions I'd ask that he hadn't answered in the order I had ask them.
He talked steady that hour, he explained how he was the second member to join the Duane Allman Band (this was the name of the band as Phil Waldron had been instructed to draw the contract an wasn't changed till Duane's burial a year after his death).
Tweed, You are right, the type head is sorta irrelevant, but not just what we want to believe, but cause the schematic's tell us so, the real question here is what value cathode caps were used in the mod (if it was indeed a four gain mod) because that has 98% effect of the tone.
I do realize you talking about a mid pass to ground and that notch is more significant than a mere 2%, Tweed Dude, I don't know, I gave up, when that filter cap under the ckt board on my JMP (MV and 4 gain mods, and 6 stabs at cathode caps) went, I gave up.
I had gotten as close as Blue Sky and the Duane Fillmore prominent lower octave and other harmonic's had to be the reflection off the brick wall coming from the open back cabinets.
All those years I used open backs I had to be 7 inches off the wall, I was convinced this was Duane's placement on the Fillmore album.
Last edited:
Lightning
New member
Continuation
Continuation
In the Fillmore video without question the amp is a different distance from the wall and no fuzz box.
A guitar player in my town, he's 52 and when he saw Duane, Duane was using a Maestro Fuzz.
Listen to Duane as he is backing up Greg's chords as a pre-empt to his solo on Fillmore Liz...you can hear him hit the fuzz.
Tweed, Can you speculate on why Nick's Fillmore bridge is caving in on the low E (nut thru 9th fret) thru my Duel Recti?
Solve this problem and count me in, never been closer to Fillmore tone.
Also I agree this is a versatile pickup. That’s why I like Duane's tone, you can emulates sax, violin, and can hang with almost any kinda music scene including metal.
Chuck
Continuation
In the Fillmore video without question the amp is a different distance from the wall and no fuzz box.
A guitar player in my town, he's 52 and when he saw Duane, Duane was using a Maestro Fuzz.
Listen to Duane as he is backing up Greg's chords as a pre-empt to his solo on Fillmore Liz...you can hear him hit the fuzz.
Tweed, Can you speculate on why Nick's Fillmore bridge is caving in on the low E (nut thru 9th fret) thru my Duel Recti?
Solve this problem and count me in, never been closer to Fillmore tone.
Also I agree this is a versatile pickup. That’s why I like Duane's tone, you can emulates sax, violin, and can hang with almost any kinda music scene including metal.
Chuck
Last edited:
Mr. Loud
New member
Re: Responce
Re: Responce
Chuck,
Responded "no" 'cause that's been the very first thing I tried in my band's practice. They were about to kick my ass for I kept interrupting to dial my amp. I boosted mids full on, and remember that marshall combo is a pretty middy little beast. Instead of the tiger-roar I was getting with CustomCustom, I was getting a tighter a cat like scream. Gotta admit, prefer the tiger-roar!
Especially so 'cause the other player is using single coils, and tight screams is his territory.
Even if that means going custom shop, I gotta have something slightly edgier, slightly tighter than Custom Custom on my LP studio without sacrificing that tiger-like roar. Didn't anybody do the alnico 3 mag swap with Custom Customs? I know, I even heard clips. Please guys, do show up, I just have one or two quick questions! HELP! I have to thank Korovamilkdud for telling me where to get the magnets, and telling me where to learn magnet swapping. Thanks to those I did my first magnet swap.
Frankly, all I need is a confirmation from somebody who has done this which might sound like: "what you think is not stupid, go ahead and try it."
If that the alnico 3 magnet swap would not do what I want, I think I am gonna be checking the Fillmores. Sounds like quite a deal.
My agenda is (please tell me if that is stupid or not)
I. the alnico 3 magnet swap
II. Fillmores
III. Custom Shop
Re: Responce
Lightning said:
Chuck,
Responded "no" 'cause that's been the very first thing I tried in my band's practice. They were about to kick my ass for I kept interrupting to dial my amp. I boosted mids full on, and remember that marshall combo is a pretty middy little beast. Instead of the tiger-roar I was getting with CustomCustom, I was getting a tighter a cat like scream. Gotta admit, prefer the tiger-roar!
Especially so 'cause the other player is using single coils, and tight screams is his territory.Even if that means going custom shop, I gotta have something slightly edgier, slightly tighter than Custom Custom on my LP studio without sacrificing that tiger-like roar. Didn't anybody do the alnico 3 mag swap with Custom Customs? I know, I even heard clips. Please guys, do show up, I just have one or two quick questions! HELP! I have to thank Korovamilkdud for telling me where to get the magnets, and telling me where to learn magnet swapping. Thanks to those I did my first magnet swap.
Frankly, all I need is a confirmation from somebody who has done this which might sound like: "what you think is not stupid, go ahead and try it."
If that the alnico 3 magnet swap would not do what I want, I think I am gonna be checking the Fillmores. Sounds like quite a deal.
My agenda is (please tell me if that is stupid or not)
I. the alnico 3 magnet swap
II. Fillmores
III. Custom Shop
Last edited:
Re: Continuation
Re: Continuation
That's a pretty cool Twiggs story. I was 18 and a college freshman in 1976 (maybe '77?), which was when I met him as well, after a Dixie Dregs gig. It was a great show at the Firebarn Tavern in Syracuse, NY. Twiggs joined the band onstage for an encore, playing Duane's gullwing burst (the one that Twiggs spelled "Duane" with frets on the back). They played Don't Want You No More/Not My Cross to Bear, and some other tunes I don't remember. I spoke with him briefly after the show, and got a close up view of the burst, and actually touched it. It was quite a big deal at the time, even tho I had never played a guitar at that point. That show inspired me to get a guitar and learn to play. I wish I'd had knowledge of guitars and gear back then, I would have bought Twiggs as many beers as he wanted just to keep him talking. On a side note, Steve Morse is another player who preferred D120s in his earlier days. Maybe he was using them when we saw him playin' that tricked-out Tele
A year or so ago, someone posted on the LPF. He worked with the ABB, worked on the guitars and amps and spent considerable time working thru the multitude of rumors and speculation among the guys over there. You might try a search over there and see what you come up with. I wish I could remember his screen name. It was very interesting, he was a great guy.
I have no idea why your friend's low E is tanking. Sounds like a speaker farting out, but you've probably eliminated that already. Those pups have a tight punchy bottom that hits you in the chest, as you know. I like to run my R8 into a MAZ 38 Senior 2x12 (Celestion G12H and a V30). Sounds great, no problems. Sounds good running into a reconed D120 as well.
I wish you luck in your tone quest. I gave up long ago, because it just didn't matter anymore to me. Everyone goes thru it one time or another, but at the end of the day, there are too many variables...from player to guitar to amp to venue to recording setup to mix and EQ. We're talking about a live recording made over 30 yrs. ago. You could have 10 Plexis in a room, identical, and they'd all sound different. You can really get nuts with this stuff. For me, getting in the ballpark tone-wise is all I care about when it comes to duplicating someone else's tone. After that, I do what I want. It's much more gratifying and a helluva lot more fun. Besides, I think I'd be more flattered by having someone say, "hey your tone reminds me Duane Allman" than someone saying, "man you sound just like Duane Allman" First of all, I'd know better. Secondly, I don't want to sound just like DA. I want to sound like me, for better or worse
BTW, have you heard the ABB Live at the Atlanta Int'l Pop Festival? It's a real gem. Worth the price just to hear Berry Oakley wailin' on Mountain Jam
Hmmm...who's that playin' a TELE??
Re: Continuation
Lightning said:
That's a pretty cool Twiggs story. I was 18 and a college freshman in 1976 (maybe '77?), which was when I met him as well, after a Dixie Dregs gig. It was a great show at the Firebarn Tavern in Syracuse, NY. Twiggs joined the band onstage for an encore, playing Duane's gullwing burst (the one that Twiggs spelled "Duane" with frets on the back). They played Don't Want You No More/Not My Cross to Bear, and some other tunes I don't remember. I spoke with him briefly after the show, and got a close up view of the burst, and actually touched it. It was quite a big deal at the time, even tho I had never played a guitar at that point. That show inspired me to get a guitar and learn to play. I wish I'd had knowledge of guitars and gear back then, I would have bought Twiggs as many beers as he wanted just to keep him talking. On a side note, Steve Morse is another player who preferred D120s in his earlier days. Maybe he was using them when we saw him playin' that tricked-out Tele
A year or so ago, someone posted on the LPF. He worked with the ABB, worked on the guitars and amps and spent considerable time working thru the multitude of rumors and speculation among the guys over there. You might try a search over there and see what you come up with. I wish I could remember his screen name. It was very interesting, he was a great guy.
I have no idea why your friend's low E is tanking. Sounds like a speaker farting out, but you've probably eliminated that already. Those pups have a tight punchy bottom that hits you in the chest, as you know. I like to run my R8 into a MAZ 38 Senior 2x12 (Celestion G12H and a V30). Sounds great, no problems. Sounds good running into a reconed D120 as well.
I wish you luck in your tone quest. I gave up long ago, because it just didn't matter anymore to me. Everyone goes thru it one time or another, but at the end of the day, there are too many variables...from player to guitar to amp to venue to recording setup to mix and EQ. We're talking about a live recording made over 30 yrs. ago. You could have 10 Plexis in a room, identical, and they'd all sound different. You can really get nuts with this stuff. For me, getting in the ballpark tone-wise is all I care about when it comes to duplicating someone else's tone. After that, I do what I want. It's much more gratifying and a helluva lot more fun. Besides, I think I'd be more flattered by having someone say, "hey your tone reminds me Duane Allman" than someone saying, "man you sound just like Duane Allman" First of all, I'd know better. Secondly, I don't want to sound just like DA. I want to sound like me, for better or worse
BTW, have you heard the ABB Live at the Atlanta Int'l Pop Festival? It's a real gem. Worth the price just to hear Berry Oakley wailin' on Mountain Jam
Hmmm...who's that playin' a TELE??
Lightning
New member
Loud,
Is this where you got the A2?
http://www.ampge.com/components.htm
If not do you mind sharing your source. At the beginning of the thread I posted some mag manufactures links if you want to see numbers. Bh is pull strength which dampens your sustain. B is the flux density, the higher the number the more efficient your pick up will be as a generator.
Last time I talked to Doc Barlo he was talking about doing an A3 custom, but then I saw him in a thread talking about an A4. I think that was Doc that did the A4. He'd be good to talk to.
The source on the A4s is Lew's Guitars. He hangs out here or you can find him on eBay, do a search for Fralin or Seymour pickups.
The A3 has considerably less pull strength than a A2 without sacrificing that much flux density. IMO while mags do change output they effect eq more, wouldn't you agree after your C pickup mag swap? I think what you experienced with the A2 the A3 will be further in that direction. Think of it this way A1, A3, A2, A4, A6, A8, A9, A5.
As you've seen some of these are unobtainable, if Lew runs out of A4s I don't know if he'll get more, Fralin only sells them by the carton, and that's his source...It sounds like what you're looking for (really the Fillmore's are).
I went on eBay to buy a C type last Saturday (just to know) and found a guitar, pickups now on hold but if the bidding goes to high I'll get the Fillmore's (Man that's a chunk of money).
It was good to hear Tweed who pushes the pre say he had no problems with the low E on the Fillmore's cause I really like them.
It's gona be Thursday before Nic can come over to the shed so I can try them with my other cab.
Fillmore's are microphonic (I'm sticking to that) but so have been many pickups I've used through the years until I learned how to wax pot (see Fralin article at Stu Mac if interested ask an I'll tell you where you can get everything to do it for $22), now the only microphonic pickups I have (far worse before potting) are those scatter wound 8.1k '76 Ventura's with the A3's that I have in the neck's of 2 guitars and I live with it cause they sound so good (replaced a Burstbucker 2 in the neck of one guitar).
If I buy a CC while I'm at it and I don't like it in the bridge of a LP I'll put it in the neck of the Melody Maker I use for slide and the JB in the bridge. So far my fav neck pickup in that guitar has been the JB (Duane SG) with coil cut (Johnny Winter Still Alive and Well) just couldn't find a bridge pickup that I liked that had the power to keep up. So maybe a C type/JB type will work (not sure which mags)
When I got my Gold Top it came with an aluminum bar and 13 E string. First thing I did was change the strings and put a brass bar (the intonated Melody Maker type that forces string wrap around) I have never heard the aluminum bar. They are a rage right now, new ones $65. Maybe I've had the missing ingrediant sitting in a box the whole time...LOL
Chuck
Is this where you got the A2?
http://www.ampge.com/components.htm
If not do you mind sharing your source. At the beginning of the thread I posted some mag manufactures links if you want to see numbers. Bh is pull strength which dampens your sustain. B is the flux density, the higher the number the more efficient your pick up will be as a generator.
Last time I talked to Doc Barlo he was talking about doing an A3 custom, but then I saw him in a thread talking about an A4. I think that was Doc that did the A4. He'd be good to talk to.
The source on the A4s is Lew's Guitars. He hangs out here or you can find him on eBay, do a search for Fralin or Seymour pickups.
The A3 has considerably less pull strength than a A2 without sacrificing that much flux density. IMO while mags do change output they effect eq more, wouldn't you agree after your C pickup mag swap? I think what you experienced with the A2 the A3 will be further in that direction. Think of it this way A1, A3, A2, A4, A6, A8, A9, A5.
As you've seen some of these are unobtainable, if Lew runs out of A4s I don't know if he'll get more, Fralin only sells them by the carton, and that's his source...It sounds like what you're looking for (really the Fillmore's are).
I went on eBay to buy a C type last Saturday (just to know) and found a guitar, pickups now on hold but if the bidding goes to high I'll get the Fillmore's (Man that's a chunk of money).
It was good to hear Tweed who pushes the pre say he had no problems with the low E on the Fillmore's cause I really like them.
It's gona be Thursday before Nic can come over to the shed so I can try them with my other cab.
Fillmore's are microphonic (I'm sticking to that) but so have been many pickups I've used through the years until I learned how to wax pot (see Fralin article at Stu Mac if interested ask an I'll tell you where you can get everything to do it for $22), now the only microphonic pickups I have (far worse before potting) are those scatter wound 8.1k '76 Ventura's with the A3's that I have in the neck's of 2 guitars and I live with it cause they sound so good (replaced a Burstbucker 2 in the neck of one guitar).
If I buy a CC while I'm at it and I don't like it in the bridge of a LP I'll put it in the neck of the Melody Maker I use for slide and the JB in the bridge. So far my fav neck pickup in that guitar has been the JB (Duane SG) with coil cut (Johnny Winter Still Alive and Well) just couldn't find a bridge pickup that I liked that had the power to keep up. So maybe a C type/JB type will work (not sure which mags)
When I got my Gold Top it came with an aluminum bar and 13 E string. First thing I did was change the strings and put a brass bar (the intonated Melody Maker type that forces string wrap around) I have never heard the aluminum bar. They are a rage right now, new ones $65. Maybe I've had the missing ingrediant sitting in a box the whole time...LOL
Chuck
Lightning
New member
Tweed,
That was my line, I gave up when the third filter cap went in my Marshall.
I actually went on an Anti-Duane kick 7 years ago and got in a Metal band where I could play crazy distorted Coltrane licks and put a Rob Zombie/Indian twist on the Duane/JW slide thing.
Fellow guitar player, writer (incredible at both), and front man had social anxiety disorder. Band never went out and played. LOL
Was that picture taken in the school gym (YMCA) in Daytona?
That was my line, I gave up when the third filter cap went in my Marshall.
I actually went on an Anti-Duane kick 7 years ago and got in a Metal band where I could play crazy distorted Coltrane licks and put a Rob Zombie/Indian twist on the Duane/JW slide thing.
Fellow guitar player, writer (incredible at both), and front man had social anxiety disorder. Band never went out and played. LOL
Was that picture taken in the school gym (YMCA) in Daytona?
dr.barlo
New member
Howdy fellas, great thread you have here!
First regarding magnets, Chuck is right. (BTW my magnet source has been Steven Kersting. To contact him check out SK guitar specialities or ampge.com. The same person!
He is very cool guy. I did get some a4's from him, but at that time he was not sure if those were weak a5's or a4's. Generally he does not keep a4's.
This led me to ask a very big favor from our own Lew. He being a Fralin dealer, listened to and accepted my request, and did this forum a great service. The magnet suppliers don't sell small quantities. And when I (John S, Bro we did coordinate on that no?) contacted them (being a magnet swap freak as I am) the smallest number of order was 200 bars. It was cheap each, yet I wish I had 100 guitars! :17: So Lew got us some from Lindy, and that was a great great and very cool thing on Lews part. And to my knowledge that is the unique a4 magnet source. Get them while you can!
Now back to magnets: over in the LPF in a recent thread my thoughts were confirmed by Tim White doing the timbuckers, hell of a winder! BTW my nick over there is turkish, I dropped my initial one. It suffices to say that was due to some incident before I learnt to keep my cool. Anyway Tim did a great service and posted the table of ingredients of alnico magnets 1-5. He also explained that the cooling process between the a5 and others (1-4) were different.
Here is the table:
Note that the mix of them are pretty different. And on paper a4 and a3 should sound similar. I am still to test that, but after hearing MattPete's clips, this is not what I am expecting.
On another note, the magnet pull is not the only measure of magnetic force. In fact I think (and again due to Tim I would say I am pretty much confident) the density of the magnetic field is more important. And the funky thing is that these are not necessarily positively correlated. A3 has a denser magnetic field but less magnet pull. So in theory, it should make a CustomCustom sound more C5 with increased sustain, of course leaving everything else constant. BTW I don't think the sustain issue would be noticeable tho!
I think it is a great read!
B
First regarding magnets, Chuck is right. (BTW my magnet source has been Steven Kersting. To contact him check out SK guitar specialities or ampge.com. The same person!
He is very cool guy. I did get some a4's from him, but at that time he was not sure if those were weak a5's or a4's. Generally he does not keep a4's. This led me to ask a very big favor from our own Lew. He being a Fralin dealer, listened to and accepted my request, and did this forum a great service. The magnet suppliers don't sell small quantities. And when I (John S, Bro we did coordinate on that no?) contacted them (being a magnet swap freak as I am) the smallest number of order was 200 bars. It was cheap each, yet I wish I had 100 guitars! :17: So Lew got us some from Lindy, and that was a great great and very cool thing on Lews part. And to my knowledge that is the unique a4 magnet source. Get them while you can!
Now back to magnets: over in the LPF in a recent thread my thoughts were confirmed by Tim White doing the timbuckers, hell of a winder! BTW my nick over there is turkish, I dropped my initial one. It suffices to say that was due to some incident before I learnt to keep my cool. Anyway Tim did a great service and posted the table of ingredients of alnico magnets 1-5. He also explained that the cooling process between the a5 and others (1-4) were different.
Here is the table:
Tim said:
Note that the mix of them are pretty different. And on paper a4 and a3 should sound similar. I am still to test that, but after hearing MattPete's clips, this is not what I am expecting.
On another note, the magnet pull is not the only measure of magnetic force. In fact I think (and again due to Tim I would say I am pretty much confident) the density of the magnetic field is more important. And the funky thing is that these are not necessarily positively correlated. A3 has a denser magnetic field but less magnet pull. So in theory, it should make a CustomCustom sound more C5 with increased sustain, of course leaving everything else constant. BTW I don't think the sustain issue would be noticeable tho!
I think it is a great read!
B
dr.barlo
New member
Mr. Loud,
You heard MattPete's a4/a2, and my a3/a2 Custom clips. So there you go. Your plan is not stupid infact it is what I would do if I were you. Go ahead and get yourself some magnets. Do the swap, and see if you are satisfied with your C3/C4. If you are not let's talk again. BTW feel free to shoot PM's!
I ADORE my 8.70K antiquity bridge with an a5 magnet. This is why I am in the process of getting another (happens to be double creme under the covers ) 8.70/7.70k antiquity set from John at BlackRose. He is the man!!!! (will be trying the bridge with an a4 and a5. I expect the neck sound best with an a3, just like my 7.60 ant neck does.) Anyway, it would do what you expect. More edge, more bite, more uppermids, less lowermids (ooo vs eee), less spongy but in your face (defined) bass. HOWEVER, listen to Maximus, he has a point when he says they become nasal. They might do that, depends on the body! On my 95 LP standard that happened. But on the right wood that's exactly what makes them cut through. That is what makes them scream. He did not like it, I love it as long as it is managable. I guess that is the same reason why my main gigging guitar is a fat tele! Anyway I like bright buckers, know this if you are gonna consider what I say. Many people don't like PG+'s, I believe hot PG+'s are the BEST wax-potted PAF clones ever done.
Doing a magnet mod on a covered ant is more tricky. You have to open up the sucker (John S among many advocates (in his tutorial with pictures and all great site!) the use of a dremel. I do what I have learnt way back from LPF folk, and use a knife after heating the solder on the baseplate. Anyway, closing it up is also tricky, because all of a sudden you might start getting sequeals. Lew has a cool method of doing that WITHOUT (even lightly) wax potting! It involves the use of a clamp, and some cloth if I remember right.
BTW you have a great guitar there. Is it bright, fat, throaty...? Remember: Don't forget the wood. Pickups are microphones, and the wood has a huge impact on tone. My 95LP standard did not sound that good with my timbuckers, that many LPF dudes would kill for. (A very long waiting list) But that same guitar sounds like a dream (better than my ex 01 R8 that I have sold) great with my rolphs with the same DC resistance values. (my 03 R8 kills them all with stock BB's!!!) So the key is matching pickups with guitars.
B
You heard MattPete's a4/a2, and my a3/a2 Custom clips. So there you go. Your plan is not stupid infact it is what I would do if I were you. Go ahead and get yourself some magnets. Do the swap, and see if you are satisfied with your C3/C4. If you are not let's talk again. BTW feel free to shoot PM's!
I ADORE my 8.70K antiquity bridge with an a5 magnet. This is why I am in the process of getting another (happens to be double creme under the covers
) 8.70/7.70k antiquity set from John at BlackRose. He is the man!!!! (will be trying the bridge with an a4 and a5. I expect the neck sound best with an a3, just like my 7.60 ant neck does.) Anyway, it would do what you expect. More edge, more bite, more uppermids, less lowermids (ooo vs eee), less spongy but in your face (defined) bass. HOWEVER, listen to Maximus, he has a point when he says they become nasal. They might do that, depends on the body! On my 95 LP standard that happened. But on the right wood that's exactly what makes them cut through. That is what makes them scream. He did not like it, I love it as long as it is managable. I guess that is the same reason why my main gigging guitar is a fat tele! Anyway I like bright buckers, know this if you are gonna consider what I say. Many people don't like PG+'s, I believe hot PG+'s are the BEST wax-potted PAF clones ever done.Doing a magnet mod on a covered ant is more tricky. You have to open up the sucker (John S among many advocates (in his tutorial with pictures and all great site!) the use of a dremel. I do what I have learnt way back from LPF folk, and use a knife after heating the solder on the baseplate. Anyway, closing it up is also tricky, because all of a sudden you might start getting sequeals. Lew has a cool method of doing that WITHOUT (even lightly) wax potting! It involves the use of a clamp, and some cloth if I remember right.
BTW you have a great guitar there. Is it bright, fat, throaty...? Remember: Don't forget the wood. Pickups are microphones, and the wood has a huge impact on tone. My 95LP standard did not sound that good with my timbuckers, that many LPF dudes would kill for. (A very long waiting list) But that same guitar sounds like a dream (better than my ex 01 R8 that I have sold) great with my rolphs with the same DC resistance values. (my 03 R8 kills them all with stock BB's!!!) So the key is matching pickups with guitars.
B
dr.barlo
New member
I love Duane's tones. Reading the insight you guys have to offer I feel I cannot add much but some personal and humble opinion based on my experience with some of the PAF clones.
I own 2 sets of timbuckers (and a great custom neck done for my 24-fret guitar to make the neck tone sound more like a good old 22-fret gibson neck tone), a set of Rolph's 59's (8.30K bridge 7.70K neck), a5/a3 modded 8.70k/7.60k ant set. Tried voodoo 59's did not work for me. I tried C5, BBQ, C3 CC various PGb's, some of which I still own.
I did not try fillmore's tho. Jim is a very nice guy to talk to, but I never get the chance of ordering some from him. God I gotta stop doing all them experiments and start playing more. Actually I am doing that, gearjoneser you hear! It has been more than 2 months now that I did not touch my soldering iron!
I do agree with Tweed, close enough is what I am looking for. Otherwise, 24-7 ain't enough!
Anyway, regarding Duaney's Fillmore tone my humble opinion is that a5 modded ants don't do it. (But they do his early tone soo good! They do a magnificient job on the right wood with Boz Scagg's Loan me a Dime! Great song!) They don't have the uppermids needed. On the other hand, me thinks especially Timbuckers (and to some lesser level) Rolphs are doing quite a convincing job. Another standard SD production pickup (a hot PG+, mine is like 8.75k) is there as well, but does not have the 3 dimesionality of the other two. (Wax potting? Tim says it is bad for the tone. I believe him!) What I do is to crank my fender bassman r9, dial high values for treble and mids, and turn down the bridge tone half-way back. I am not saying that this nails it, but me thinks the difference is hard to notice when the listener cannot hear that tone and the recorded version one after the other. That is good enough for me. (BTW I appreciate reading experimentations and suggestions. It is FUN!)
B
I own 2 sets of timbuckers (and a great custom neck done for my 24-fret guitar to make the neck tone sound more like a good old 22-fret gibson neck tone), a set of Rolph's 59's (8.30K bridge 7.70K neck), a5/a3 modded 8.70k/7.60k ant set. Tried voodoo 59's did not work for me. I tried C5, BBQ, C3 CC various PGb's, some of which I still own.
I did not try fillmore's tho. Jim is a very nice guy to talk to, but I never get the chance of ordering some from him. God I gotta stop doing all them experiments and start playing more. Actually I am doing that, gearjoneser you hear!
It has been more than 2 months now that I did not touch my soldering iron!I do agree with Tweed, close enough is what I am looking for. Otherwise, 24-7 ain't enough!
Anyway, regarding Duaney's Fillmore tone my humble opinion is that a5 modded ants don't do it. (But they do his early tone soo good! They do a magnificient job on the right wood with Boz Scagg's Loan me a Dime! Great song!) They don't have the uppermids needed. On the other hand, me thinks especially Timbuckers (and to some lesser level) Rolphs are doing quite a convincing job. Another standard SD production pickup (a hot PG+, mine is like 8.75k) is there as well, but does not have the 3 dimesionality of the other two. (Wax potting? Tim says it is bad for the tone. I believe him!) What I do is to crank my fender bassman r9, dial high values for treble and mids, and turn down the bridge tone half-way back. I am not saying that this nails it, but me thinks the difference is hard to notice when the listener cannot hear that tone and the recorded version one after the other. That is good enough for me. (BTW I appreciate reading experimentations and suggestions. It is FUN!)
B
Last edited:
papersoul
New member
Re: Responce
Re: Responce
Yes to this....
Do you like Ty Tabor's tone (King's X)? The opening power cords of "The Hollow" (APC)?
I love APC's tone and also the Tool tone. I played a gig last night with my Les Paul with Burstbucker Pros and was told I had a Tool vibe going. I srill wonder what I would gain with the C-5 or the Fillmore. I was told the BB Pros would be too vintage but I got some punding and brutal tones and also some gorgeous clean tones. I may have to try the C-5 for the heck of it even though i hear it is more vintage than the Fillmore. I would think the C-5 would sound more powerful since it has more bass and highs. Another pickup I might consider is the Dimarzio Air Zone. Now, I'm rambling. Sorry.
o
I don't care if a pickup is supposed to be vintage or modern as long as it works with my guitar and amp and can be played clean and still pound you in the chest when needed.
I remember Gearjoneser saying the C-5 can easily be used in just about any guitar and work well, with th epossible exception of a Strat.
Re: Responce
Lightning said:
Yes to this....
Do you like Ty Tabor's tone (King's X)? The opening power cords of "The Hollow" (APC)?
I love APC's tone and also the Tool tone. I played a gig last night with my Les Paul with Burstbucker Pros and was told I had a Tool vibe going. I srill wonder what I would gain with the C-5 or the Fillmore. I was told the BB Pros would be too vintage but I got some punding and brutal tones and also some gorgeous clean tones. I may have to try the C-5 for the heck of it even though i hear it is more vintage than the Fillmore. I would think the C-5 would sound more powerful since it has more bass and highs. Another pickup I might consider is the Dimarzio Air Zone. Now, I'm rambling. Sorry.
o I don't care if a pickup is supposed to be vintage or modern as long as it works with my guitar and amp and can be played clean and still pound you in the chest when needed.
I remember Gearjoneser saying the C-5 can easily be used in just about any guitar and work well, with th epossible exception of a Strat.
Lightning
New member
Responce
Responce
Paper Soul,
I never bought a C type cause neither the JB nor DD had enough low mid for me. Assuming C types and JB/DD type are both wound with #43 how could the C type have more low mids. I can only imagine that the JB frequencies below 400Hz were to pronounced and took away from the mids and that's why you like it better.
If you want to hear the Fillmore pickups or ones really really really close, buy the Fillmore East CD, I don't think you will like the first 3 tunes but you will swear by the other 4 for the rest of your life.
Don't judge the ABB by what you heard on the radio, Fillmore East is different. I suspect once you get hooked on Duane you'll be digging for all of him you can find.
If you like that guy in APC, you'll like Duane...that's why I like APC.
Love Ty too but he doesn't link to Duane, just a great player.
Started new thread for this subject "A Perfect Circle / Tool" the rest of my response is there.
Responce
Paper Soul,
I never bought a C type cause neither the JB nor DD had enough low mid for me. Assuming C types and JB/DD type are both wound with #43 how could the C type have more low mids. I can only imagine that the JB frequencies below 400Hz were to pronounced and took away from the mids and that's why you like it better.
If you want to hear the Fillmore pickups or ones really really really close, buy the Fillmore East CD, I don't think you will like the first 3 tunes but you will swear by the other 4 for the rest of your life.
Don't judge the ABB by what you heard on the radio, Fillmore East is different. I suspect once you get hooked on Duane you'll be digging for all of him you can find.
If you like that guy in APC, you'll like Duane...that's why I like APC.
Love Ty too but he doesn't link to Duane, just a great player.
Started new thread for this subject "A Perfect Circle / Tool" the rest of my response is there.
Lightning
New member
Accepting Rewind Theory
Accepting Rewind Theory
Tweed,
The Twiggs Duane pickup story goes like this, LP 1 (Gold Top) pickups were stock unless changed before purchased.
LP 1 was traded with a Marshall head for LP 2 (GT) because it was cleaner.
1st album is LP 1, 2nd album maybe earlier cuts are LP 1, but Duane left to record Layla before the last song was recorded (so all three lead guitars on that song are Betts) and when he got on the plane he was carrying LP 2. This means some or most of the cuts on the second album have to be LP 2.
As you can see on the Layla album that's LP 3 (Carmel sunburst the one that got the frets in the back). Twiggs said when Duane returned he had this one (LP 3) and he knew nothing about that transaction or even where LP 2 went.
Duane had issues with LP 2, didn't have it long, and there was a pickup swap (performed by a road crew member) that didn't satisfy him.
Twiggs said Duane thought it had to just be the wood cause he knew the guitar that the pickups came from.
Everything I'm saying here is per Twiggs even down to the reasoning of LP 2s part on the second album (prompted by my questions).
I could see Duane running into some guy in New York or where ever and getting a rewind, despite the Miami deal (Layla Session), see that's another thing Duane was so excited when he got back, that's all he wanted to talk about.
It's hard for me to imagine Duane would not have told him about a rewind. If it was going to happen, IMO it would have been LP 3.
Okay, I'm entertaining this cause of Morse. I never asked Morse about pickups. I assumed the Tele had a DiMarzio Super Distortion and as the chrome has worn off of the neck the cover exposes itself as nickel implying a PAF.
Then comes the DiMarzio Morse Pickups. Never even considered them, but last week a set came up on eBay, so I emailed the guy and he measured them and emailed me back, 10k and 20k.
Whether Morse used a Super Distortion or not NO ONE is going to use #42 wire to make a 20k pickup nor would a classical player use 10k #42 for a neck pickup.
So I'm making the assumption they are #43. I was intrigued by the 10k but blew off the 20k bridge, in fact I knew when I heard the Fillmore's I was doing the right thing not getting them. Even though THAT’S A FILLMORE NECK, Fillmore's come in sets.
I think the JB was already out when the Morse pickups were made and the idea to use #43 may have spawn from there.
Maybe the fact that he likes Teles (Joe Walsh said in 73 GP Mag he had wired his tele in series) or maybe Duane's LP 3?
Walsh used to watch Duane at the Fillmore, said that's where he learned to play slide from watching Duane.
When I heard Funk 49 I bought a guitar, it was that song, the studio version is the series wound Tele...What's a series wound tele's DC resistance?
Accepting Rewind Theory
Tweed,
The Twiggs Duane pickup story goes like this, LP 1 (Gold Top) pickups were stock unless changed before purchased.
LP 1 was traded with a Marshall head for LP 2 (GT) because it was cleaner.
1st album is LP 1, 2nd album maybe earlier cuts are LP 1, but Duane left to record Layla before the last song was recorded (so all three lead guitars on that song are Betts) and when he got on the plane he was carrying LP 2. This means some or most of the cuts on the second album have to be LP 2.
As you can see on the Layla album that's LP 3 (Carmel sunburst the one that got the frets in the back). Twiggs said when Duane returned he had this one (LP 3) and he knew nothing about that transaction or even where LP 2 went.
Duane had issues with LP 2, didn't have it long, and there was a pickup swap (performed by a road crew member) that didn't satisfy him.
Twiggs said Duane thought it had to just be the wood cause he knew the guitar that the pickups came from.
Everything I'm saying here is per Twiggs even down to the reasoning of LP 2s part on the second album (prompted by my questions).
I could see Duane running into some guy in New York or where ever and getting a rewind, despite the Miami deal (Layla Session), see that's another thing Duane was so excited when he got back, that's all he wanted to talk about.
It's hard for me to imagine Duane would not have told him about a rewind. If it was going to happen, IMO it would have been LP 3.
Okay, I'm entertaining this cause of Morse. I never asked Morse about pickups. I assumed the Tele had a DiMarzio Super Distortion and as the chrome has worn off of the neck the cover exposes itself as nickel implying a PAF.
Then comes the DiMarzio Morse Pickups. Never even considered them, but last week a set came up on eBay, so I emailed the guy and he measured them and emailed me back, 10k and 20k.
Whether Morse used a Super Distortion or not NO ONE is going to use #42 wire to make a 20k pickup nor would a classical player use 10k #42 for a neck pickup.
So I'm making the assumption they are #43. I was intrigued by the 10k but blew off the 20k bridge, in fact I knew when I heard the Fillmore's I was doing the right thing not getting them. Even though THAT’S A FILLMORE NECK, Fillmore's come in sets.
I think the JB was already out when the Morse pickups were made and the idea to use #43 may have spawn from there.
Maybe the fact that he likes Teles (Joe Walsh said in 73 GP Mag he had wired his tele in series) or maybe Duane's LP 3?
Walsh used to watch Duane at the Fillmore, said that's where he learned to play slide from watching Duane.
When I heard Funk 49 I bought a guitar, it was that song, the studio version is the series wound Tele...What's a series wound tele's DC resistance?
