Chord naming "The Susm2"

[Fretology]

I know this will stir a debate but what the heck ----thats what forums are for

What do you guys think about this thread I started at guitarworld?

http://www.guitarworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25762

I am writing documentation to support my chord module at guitarcomputer.com about chord naming and I presented a question/proposition for a new chord naming scheme at that forum at the above link.
(read the whole thread the debate is quite interesting)

I am asking for your opinions here because I can see there is a lot of knowledge within these "walls".

In short , it is of course my opinion that current chord naming conventions should be changed to reflect the actual intervals being used within a particular chord.


You can also read this document that is a work in progress:
http://guitarcomputer.com/live/?chordnames


I look forward to your comments.

 

[Osensei]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

In theory class, when we had a chord that couldn't be named it was considered a tone cluster! That's it! There was no further attempt to analyze it. Then it was deemed to be "modern"! LOL!

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

ok....., what about chords that currently do have names and are named with the "Flat Terminology"?

I'm sure that in music theory class you did not come accross an interval that was a "flat 2nd" but instead it was called a "minor second" or "m2". Everyone knows or at least learns to substitute the "Flat Terminology" to be the correct interval at hand. What I am saying is....why the unecessary substitution in the first place? Let's just call it what it is.
Do you see what I mean?

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

The point of names is to be able to communicate a "language" when people start to change the traditional names that are accepted it becomes slang.

 

[Osensei]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

I dunno! It's not a sore issue with me. Maybe because I've already been through that part of the learning process so long ago. If I was just a beginner maybe I would benefit from your new approach! I dunno! Maybe!

Now that I think about it! I do remember that different notation already exists! Some charts read A7b9, some just say A(b9) and still others use A7(-9). I definately remember the use of +/- in front of chord tones! If you teach students that the + mean (augmented) and the minus means (diminished) then maybe its ok.

The terms raised, lowered, augmented, diminished, b/#, major and minor can set your head to spinning. That's because each term is used in a different context. Thats why the nominclature has to cover all of the bases. You see when you raise or lower certain pitches with in the chord its called augmented or diminished respectivley. Other raised or lowered pitches indicate major/minor. Still others are just raised/lowered.

I remember +/- for aug/dim, but the - was also used to indicate a minor chord like A-7 for Am7. Then sometimes they used a triangle to indicate a major so that the "maj" in Amaj7 would be replaced by a triangle. Also a circle replaced the "dim" as in Dbdim7. A half circle would indicate a half diminished chord and so on.

You see! Its so easy for ambiguity to set in! It's easy to get so confused that you won't be able to explain your own system! ROFL!

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

innerdreamrecords:

the current "way" is already slang

Osensei: yeah the whole reasoning behind it is to make it clearer for beginners.

All I am suggesting is the use of :

M = Major
m = minor
aug = augmented
dim = diminished

no flats (b) double flats(bb) sharps etc when it comes to naming an interval.

symbols like + or - or traingle and circle would be ok I think but the flat or sharp terms need reworking.

I say this beause a beginner would take my Susm2 from above and try to apply the "flat" terminology to it and end up creating Susdim2.
See my point?

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

From one of my theory books:

Writing a Minor with a Major seventh can be. m#7, m(+7), mi (maj7).

Do we have to talk can we just play?

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

I Understand that books have it written the "Old" way I am not disputing that.

I am suggestiing that from what you quoted your book as saying m#7 should be written mM7, m(M) or mi (Maj7) so the chord written would be for instance EmM7 which is an E minor with a Major 7th.
The first two you quoted have problems....the sharp in the first example for reasons I have already stated and the (+) symbol in the second could be for an augmented 7 (just like what Osensei had stated).

I realize that maybe you have this all figured out and are able to substitute the real meaning of the "Old way" of things.....but can you see (like maybe Osensei could) that for those just learning and for those that teach beginners this new way might help them to understand things right from the start?

That way we could all do less talk and just play

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

I Understand that books have it written the "Old" way I am not disputing that.

I am suggestiing that from what you quoted your book as saying m#7 should be written mM7, m(M) or mi (Maj7) so the chord written would be for instance EmM7 which is an E minor with a Major 7th.
The first two you quoted have problems....the sharp in the first example for reasons I have already stated and the (+) symbol in the second could be for an augmented 7 (just like what Osensei had stated).

I realize that maybe you have this all figured out and are able to substitute the real meaning of the "Old way" of things.....but can you see (like maybe Osensei could) that for those just learning and for those that teach beginners this new way might help them to understand things right from the start?

That way we could all do less talk and just play

Actually no I don't think things need to change.

The way it is described is " Add a major third above the minor triad" for the example I gave. That seems perfectly reasonable and easy to understand for all levels. There is a reason things developed as they have I think.

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

You said your book says " Add a major third above the minor triad" I am not saying that is hard to understand....I thought we were talking about the symbols to depict it within a chord in which case that would be an M7 not a #7......so it sounds like you do agree or at least your book does but is using a different, more confusing symbol.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

A M7 or Maj 7th is a major third above the major triad. Am I missing something? I guess I don't know what you really object to? Is it all the various names? Instead of just one name?

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

ok......I will try to explain better....if, take for example your "Emin Major 7th chord" which has a spelling of E,G,B,D#

The D# is a Major 7th interval from E. so it's an M7.

If we tell a new guy it's an E minor sharp 7.
He might try to sharp the D# which is wrong. What is the point of saying "sharp 7" anyway....why not call it what it is?

Here is an interval name list I wrote that you can compare to any college level theory text book .......... nowhere is there such a thing as a #7 interval (in my list or at college)

Perfect Prime or Unison - U
diminished 2nd - dim2
minor 2nd - m2
Major 2nd - M2
diminished 3nd - dim3
minor third - m3
Major 3rd - M3
diminished 4th - dim4
Perfect 4th - P4
augmented 4th - aug 4
diminished 5th - dim 5
Perfect 5th - P5
augmented 5th - aug 5
diminished 6th - dim 6
minor 6th - m6
Major 6 - M6
augmented 6th - aug6
diminished 7th - dim7
minor 7 - m7
Major 7 - M7
augmented 7th -
8th - octave - P8

So my point is why do we not name chords based on the intervals they are made of?

You and I both know what is "meant by" a #7 but why do we need to substitute a #7 to mean a M7 when kids taking theory lessons learn it as an M7 anyway.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

Okay, my head is spinning, I'm old and it's been over twenty years since I studied this. LOL

[
If we tell a new guy it's an E minor sharp 7.
He might try to sharp the D# which is wrong./QUOTE]

I think this is the problem right here, they need to understand the right interval to begin with because the 7 scale degree is the D not the D#. Am I wrong?

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

It's funny because I am trying to keep your head from spinning.....
But anyway.....
On an E min Major 7th chord, the Major 7th is a D# .....E to D# is a Major 7th.
By the way this chord occurs in the E Harmonic minor scale.

So like you just said...they need to understand the right interval to begin with...well naming the chord after the correct intervallic spelling would help this.

That is the point I am trying to make for a new naming system.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

well naming the chord after the correct intervallic spelling would help this.

That is the point I am trying to make for a new naming system.

I see. Well then...you'll have to take this up with the Official Naming The Chord people.

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

well you got me there.....

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

The reason we dont see a "Susm2" chord, in my opinion is due to the fact that in the "correct" music world, that chord doesn't exist outside of dominant harmony. You wont see a "CSusm2" or "CminSusm2" chord for one reason . . . . its not correct. The Minor second interval is deamed the "avoid" tone or the "note that destroys the structure of the chord" over minor chords.

However we do see C7 b9, and thats because that chord actually occurs in harmony, and thats due to the fact that dominant chords are incredibly strong structures and can handle that tension being put on it.

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

I never said anything about CminSusm2 only Susm2. There is no such thing as a Sus chord with a 3rd.

But in fact the Susm2 _can_ exist especially in rock or metal. E,B,F with intervals of a root (E) m2 (F) and P5 (B). It doesn't "destroy" the chord either because there is no 3rd to clash with. It's actually a wicked sounding chord.

and.....I am saying that the C7b9 sould be named C7m9 (or depending on how you voice it C7m2 ) which shows the actual interval being used just like the Susm2 does

The minor second interval is not an interval to avoid in this day and age of rock and roll and metal.

 

[YJM_Rocks]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

Theres nothing wrong with a b2 or b9, I see them all the time in jazz music.

 

[Fretology]

Re: Chord naming "The Susm2"

YJM did you start from reading from the beginning of the thread?