natelc1979
New member
I just got my epiphone 50’s les Paul and I’m wanting to put new pickups in it. I’m looking for Clapton fresh cream type of tone. So I’m deciding between the 59 and the Alnico ii or pearly gates models. What do you guys think?
Clapton Fresh cream pickups Alnico ii or V
- Thread starter natelc1979
- Start date
Lewguitar
New member
That's an incredible sound Clapton got back then. A 100 watt Marshall turned up most of or all of the way had a HUGE hand in that. It's what made Hendrix want a Marshall.
I don't think he was using his 1959/60 Les Paul, which he had with the Bluesbreakers and which probably had Alnico 4 pafs.
I think he may have been using a borrowed Les Paul that was older by a year or so. Maybe a '58.
So I doubt they were Alnico 4 or 5. I'm thinking Alnico 2.
I get closest to that tone with my Antiquitys which come with roughcast Alnico 2.
Some older Antiquitys come with aged Alnico 2 that are polished. Those sound great too, and I have a set of those as well.
But 50's Gibson paf's came with roughcast, and IMO roughcast Alnico 2 gets the sound of the real pafs I have owned.
If you're after Clapton's Fresh Cream tone I'd get Antiquitys, remove the covers, and crank that amp up to patent applied for!
natelc1979
New member
What regular production Model would be closest? Antiquities are more than I want to spend.
Lewguitar
New member
IMO, the 59 set but modded with roughcast alnico 2 magnets.
Stock without mods? Maybe the Pearly Gates.
The Seth Lovers are nice too but they're more...polite.
Lewguitar
New member
I thought Clapton got the best tone of his career when he was with Cream.
Whether he was playing a Les Paul, SG, Firebird or ES-335, that was favorite sound he ever got.
But again, those cranked plexi Marshalls were as important (if not more important) as the guitar.
The SG, Firebird and ES-335 would have been Alnico 5.
These days, for my ears, and for the lower volumes most of us play at even in clubs, alnico 5 is too bright. That's for me and the audience I play for.
I get a more pleasing, more touch sensitive tone with my stock alnico 2 Antiquitys or 59's modified with alnico 2.
I actually like the sizzle of Alnico 5. It's a cool tone.
But I feel more comfortable and play better with Alnico 2.
Whether he was playing a Les Paul, SG, Firebird or ES-335, that was favorite sound he ever got.
But again, those cranked plexi Marshalls were as important (if not more important) as the guitar.
The SG, Firebird and ES-335 would have been Alnico 5.
These days, for my ears, and for the lower volumes most of us play at even in clubs, alnico 5 is too bright. That's for me and the audience I play for.
I get a more pleasing, more touch sensitive tone with my stock alnico 2 Antiquitys or 59's modified with alnico 2.
I actually like the sizzle of Alnico 5. It's a cool tone.
But I feel more comfortable and play better with Alnico 2.
Lewguitar
New member
Seth Lover specified Alnico 2 when he designed the Gibson humbucker and they were pretty common in earlier pafs.
However, Tom Holmes found purchase orders for magnets when he worked for Gibson and discovered that in 1959 Gibson ordered more Alnico 4 magnets than any other.
That's why Tom uses Alnico 4 most often in his own pickups.
I like A4. But I like A2 more. It sounds sweeter and more like Clapton's Cream era, cranked Marshall tone, to me, regardless of what pickups he was using.
Everything I've read indicated that Gibson pafs from '57, '58 and '59 could have been A2, A4 or A5 and occasionally A3. Gibson used what they could get apparently.
I've owned a few Gibsons from those years and all I can say is that humbuckers with roughcast alnico 2 remind me most of the sound of my favorite pickups that I've owned from that era.
No one really knows and most folks who own those guitars don't want to destroy the magnet in their paf to find out.
Here's a cool shoot out of the same pickup set with A2, A4 and A5 magnets.
And then lastly, a real '57 Les Paul that sure sounds to me like the newer guitar demoed with A2 magnets.
The music starts at about the 30 minute mark.
Most important is just to find the sound that works for you.
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I hear you there, and duncan makes some killer affordable production models. And you're likely to get a million different replies here. One option to get going: pick either a set of 59's or Alnico 2 Pro humbuckers. Buy them from an authorized dealer, and see what you think. If it's not quite doing it for you, take advantage of their exchange policy. and you'll have a good benchmark for what you do or don't like. Say, if you get a pair of 59's, you can say "it's close but I want something with more mids" or whatever.
hamerfan
Well-known member
Lew, read here. You probably need Google Translate.
https://www.amberpickups.com/NEWS/INFO/Mythos-AlNiCo/
He actually tested PAF mags with physical methods and discovered at most samples a mixture similar to our modern A4.
https://www.amberpickups.com/NEWS/INFO/Mythos-AlNiCo/
He actually tested PAF mags with physical methods and discovered at most samples a mixture similar to our modern A4.
Lewguitar
New member
What I really, REALLY think the OP should do is buy a set of Duncan 59's without covers. Neck and Bridge.
Install them and play them through his amp for awhile and see if he's happy. If he is, then fine.
If he's less than satisfied order 2: RCA2 magnets and 2: RCA5 magnets from AddictionFX.
Do some magnet swapping in the 59's until he finds the tone he's looking for with his gear.
Install them and play them through his amp for awhile and see if he's happy. If he is, then fine.
If he's less than satisfied order 2: RCA2 magnets and 2: RCA5 magnets from AddictionFX.
Do some magnet swapping in the 59's until he finds the tone he's looking for with his gear.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
IME a Pearly Gates Set or Jazz Set in a budget LP would get in Fresh Cream territory with the right amp or amp emulation. I’ve even cross mixed a Pearly bridge with Jazz neck and vice versa. Works equally well.
59 neck isn’t right for that - too tubby/flabby in the bass, and the 59 bridge doesn’t have the screaming treble Clapton got. (Think of the Sweet Wine solo - the source was bright but the mic was far from that full on amp which softened the top end a bit, but you can hear that screaming sound is there) On NSU you can hear the snap of the strings when he plays clean, and Cats Squirrel is what a bright pickup sounds like with the tone rolled off. It howls instead of just sounding dark.
59 neck isn’t right for that - too tubby/flabby in the bass, and the 59 bridge doesn’t have the screaming treble Clapton got. (Think of the Sweet Wine solo - the source was bright but the mic was far from that full on amp which softened the top end a bit, but you can hear that screaming sound is there) On NSU you can hear the snap of the strings when he plays clean, and Cats Squirrel is what a bright pickup sounds like with the tone rolled off. It howls instead of just sounding dark.
Lewguitar
New member
Like I said, a HUGE part of the equation is a cranked 100 watt Marshall stack with EIGHT 12" CELESTIONS.
Without it you're not going to get Clapton's Cream tone.
IMO, it's as important as the guitar. Maybe more. Clapton could switch guitars, even going to the single mini-humbucker Gibson Firebird at the end of Cream. I saw him play that guitar close up too. He still got THAT classic Clapton Cream tone, as long as he was playing through the Marshall stacks.
Those old Marshalls with the presence control can be very bright. I've owned several real plexis and original 60's Marshall cabinets.
The 59 is an extremely versatile pickup set and it can sound a lot like an Antiquity with a magnet swap to RCA2.
As for the neck 59 sounding tubby it's not nearly so tubby as a real neck paf or early 60's Gibson humbucker. Remember, in those days both pickups were the same. The neck pickup was not underwound compared to the bridge pickup. Instead they were identical and if they weren't it was an accident.
And with a magnet swap the 59 becomes a different sounding pickup entirely.
The stock polished A5 magnet makes the 59 trebley and has a lot of bass. The mids are not really scooped as some say, but there's enough treble and bass on hand to make it sound that way to some people,
RCA3 cleans it right up. Makes the 59N into a wonderful, clean neck pickup. Not so great for overdrive but fabulous for cleaner tones.
RCA2 decreases the bass while loosening it up, increases the mids and softens the treble. Nice for clean tones and great for soloing and for overdriven tones.
RCA5 adds some mids, softens the treble slightly and gives the whole pickup a more textured and complex sound. A 59B with RCA5 is still a little bright for me but not unpleasant at all. I think hard rockers would love it.
RCA4 is another good choice to experiment with. To me it's sort of between an A2 and A5, with some the reduced and spongier bass of A2, more mids than A5 and softer treble than A5 but more treble than A2. I like it better in the bridge pickup than the neck pickup and I have an Antiquity set with A2 in the neck and A4 in the bridge.
I find that the 59 set can emulate all of the pafs with a magnet swap.
It's wound with very similar copper wire as the old Pafs.
But again, old pafs were not calibrated for less output from the neck pickup the way 59's and most modern pickup sets are.
Without it you're not going to get Clapton's Cream tone.
IMO, it's as important as the guitar. Maybe more. Clapton could switch guitars, even going to the single mini-humbucker Gibson Firebird at the end of Cream. I saw him play that guitar close up too. He still got THAT classic Clapton Cream tone, as long as he was playing through the Marshall stacks.
Those old Marshalls with the presence control can be very bright. I've owned several real plexis and original 60's Marshall cabinets.
The 59 is an extremely versatile pickup set and it can sound a lot like an Antiquity with a magnet swap to RCA2.
As for the neck 59 sounding tubby it's not nearly so tubby as a real neck paf or early 60's Gibson humbucker. Remember, in those days both pickups were the same. The neck pickup was not underwound compared to the bridge pickup. Instead they were identical and if they weren't it was an accident.
And with a magnet swap the 59 becomes a different sounding pickup entirely.
The stock polished A5 magnet makes the 59 trebley and has a lot of bass. The mids are not really scooped as some say, but there's enough treble and bass on hand to make it sound that way to some people,
RCA3 cleans it right up. Makes the 59N into a wonderful, clean neck pickup. Not so great for overdrive but fabulous for cleaner tones.
RCA2 decreases the bass while loosening it up, increases the mids and softens the treble. Nice for clean tones and great for soloing and for overdriven tones.
RCA5 adds some mids, softens the treble slightly and gives the whole pickup a more textured and complex sound. A 59B with RCA5 is still a little bright for me but not unpleasant at all. I think hard rockers would love it.
RCA4 is another good choice to experiment with. To me it's sort of between an A2 and A5, with some the reduced and spongier bass of A2, more mids than A5 and softer treble than A5 but more treble than A2. I like it better in the bridge pickup than the neck pickup and I have an Antiquity set with A2 in the neck and A4 in the bridge.
I find that the 59 set can emulate all of the pafs with a magnet swap.
It's wound with very similar copper wire as the old Pafs.
But again, old pafs were not calibrated for less output from the neck pickup the way 59's and most modern pickup sets are.
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Lewguitar
New member
This is Clapton with his SG. Disraeli Gears era. 1968. I saw Cream in '68 probably on this tour.
I was sitting on the floor right in front of Clapton at the Grande Ballroom in Detroit.
He looked just like this and was playing this guitar and probably these Marshalls.
In person, sometimes it was too bright and too loud. But he was the best guitarist I'd ever seen.
These are almost certainly alnico 5 early to almost mid 60's pickups. Maybe even the short magnet version.
His touch is amazing. So smooth and warm. His vibrato is almost unequaled. So elegant.
If Clapton had 59's in this guitar he could easily make them sound like this, IMO.
And if they were roughcast A5's making them sound like this would be even easier.
If they were roughcast A2's, getting that smooth bloom and almost rubbery elastic stretchy sound would be even easier.
I don't know what amp the OP has. That's why I suggested trying the 59's and then doing some magnet swapping to dial in his tone with his gear.
To me this sound in this video is similar to Eddie Van Halen's early live sound. Same kind of Marshalls.
I know Clapton provided the inspiration for Eddie's sound. He's said so many times.
A lot of us who were big fans were really disappointed when he switched to Fender guitars and Fender amps.
He completely lost this sound.
I was sitting on the floor right in front of Clapton at the Grande Ballroom in Detroit.
He looked just like this and was playing this guitar and probably these Marshalls.
In person, sometimes it was too bright and too loud. But he was the best guitarist I'd ever seen.
These are almost certainly alnico 5 early to almost mid 60's pickups. Maybe even the short magnet version.
His touch is amazing. So smooth and warm. His vibrato is almost unequaled. So elegant.
If Clapton had 59's in this guitar he could easily make them sound like this, IMO.
And if they were roughcast A5's making them sound like this would be even easier.
If they were roughcast A2's, getting that smooth bloom and almost rubbery elastic stretchy sound would be even easier.
I don't know what amp the OP has. That's why I suggested trying the 59's and then doing some magnet swapping to dial in his tone with his gear.
To me this sound in this video is similar to Eddie Van Halen's early live sound. Same kind of Marshalls.
I know Clapton provided the inspiration for Eddie's sound. He's said so many times.
A lot of us who were big fans were really disappointed when he switched to Fender guitars and Fender amps.
He completely lost this sound.
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Lewguitar
New member
I don't hate Clapton's sound on a Strat but I don't love it. I can see why he changed tho. The Gibson through a Marshall stack sound quickly became a cliche and everybody became a Clapton wannabe. Bands like Blue Cheer and others... Some of them were awful.
Clapton made a hard right turn just like Picasso might have. Like Joni Mitchell did too when so many female singer songwriters started copying her. That's what real artist's often do.
In so far as Clapton's 335 sound those are alnico 5 humbuckers. Maybe short A5 magnets like those that became T-Tops like Larry Carlton created his signature sound with.
I've read that Clapton used the 335 for the live Crossroads solo on Wheels of Fire. At the time I assumed it was the SG. Either way they were alnico 5 Gibson humbuckers similar though not identical to Duncan 59's.
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