CTS Pots - problem
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GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: CTS Pots - problem
What you're describing is why I don't like 50's wiring. 50's wiring links your tone knob and volume knob in unpredictable ways. If you have the tone knob on 5, setting the volume to different levels means you'll have to change the tone knob if you want to keep things sounding the same. When you lower the volume with 50's wiring, lowering your tone knob will drop volume further. It's crazytown. I find 50's wiring very difficult to control while playing live because the knobs all seem to do different things all the time. It probably works best if you never use the tone knob and just raise the volume of pickups up/down. Then 50's wiring keeps your pickups sounding roughly the same (although not as good as a decent treble bleed) at different volume levels.
If you use modern wiring, your tone knob acts to change tone, your volume knob acts to change volume. It's much more predictable. The only problem is that turning volume down will make your pickups sound darker . . . which adding a treble bleed solves.
What you're describing is why I don't like 50's wiring. 50's wiring links your tone knob and volume knob in unpredictable ways. If you have the tone knob on 5, setting the volume to different levels means you'll have to change the tone knob if you want to keep things sounding the same. When you lower the volume with 50's wiring, lowering your tone knob will drop volume further. It's crazytown. I find 50's wiring very difficult to control while playing live because the knobs all seem to do different things all the time. It probably works best if you never use the tone knob and just raise the volume of pickups up/down. Then 50's wiring keeps your pickups sounding roughly the same (although not as good as a decent treble bleed) at different volume levels.
If you use modern wiring, your tone knob acts to change tone, your volume knob acts to change volume. It's much more predictable. The only problem is that turning volume down will make your pickups sound darker . . . which adding a treble bleed solves.
Re: CTS Pots - problem
"Unpredictable" to you maybe. Could be that you don't use 50s wiring and just aren't familiar with it. I wire all of my guitars 50s style and am very familiar with it and don't experience any of the things you are describing.
If you want to "keep things sounding the same" you won't be touching the vol OR the tone pots...in any type of wiring. But if you are meaning that you want to keep the TONE sounding the same, then you've got that backwards. Turning the vol down in modern wiring lowers the tone much more dramatically.
No. It only drops the tone, taking out the treble, making it sound like the volume is lower. That is a normal interpretation of tone and volume with human ears. The ears are designed to hear mids and upper mids more acutely than other frequencies. If you remove those frequencies (by rolling down the tone knob) the total sound pressure that your ears "hear" will naturally be lower. You interpret that as lower volume. Doesn't have anything to do with 50s or modern wiring.
That has NEVER been my experience. To me, it is very consistent...its behavior is always predictable in my guitars.
Well, no, that's not the only "problem" with modern wiring. The biggest problem is that in a 2 pup 2 vol guitar, turning one vol pot completely down essentially turns your guitar off.
"Unpredictable" to you maybe. Could be that you don't use 50s wiring and just aren't familiar with it. I wire all of my guitars 50s style and am very familiar with it and don't experience any of the things you are describing.
If you want to "keep things sounding the same" you won't be touching the vol OR the tone pots...in any type of wiring. But if you are meaning that you want to keep the TONE sounding the same, then you've got that backwards. Turning the vol down in modern wiring lowers the tone much more dramatically.
No. It only drops the tone, taking out the treble, making it sound like the volume is lower. That is a normal interpretation of tone and volume with human ears. The ears are designed to hear mids and upper mids more acutely than other frequencies. If you remove those frequencies (by rolling down the tone knob) the total sound pressure that your ears "hear" will naturally be lower. You interpret that as lower volume. Doesn't have anything to do with 50s or modern wiring.
That has NEVER been my experience. To me, it is very consistent...its behavior is always predictable in my guitars.
Well, no, that's not the only "problem" with modern wiring. The biggest problem is that in a 2 pup 2 vol guitar, turning one vol pot completely down essentially turns your guitar off.
Re: CTS Pots - problem
That CAN happen with any brand of pot with any type of wiring. Pots are not very precision devices and have between 10 and 30% tolerances, regardless of what the manufacturer may say. Yes, some are much better and much more consistent than that, but at zero to 1 on the knob, does it really make a difference if there is no volume?
This also makes a difference whether you use linear or audio taper pots. It can also be different whether you use 50s or modern wiring, but whichever wiring you decide to use, if you use that wiring consistently in your guitars you will get used to it and come to expect and appreciate it.
That CAN happen with any brand of pot with any type of wiring. Pots are not very precision devices and have between 10 and 30% tolerances, regardless of what the manufacturer may say. Yes, some are much better and much more consistent than that, but at zero to 1 on the knob, does it really make a difference if there is no volume?
This also makes a difference whether you use linear or audio taper pots. It can also be different whether you use 50s or modern wiring, but whichever wiring you decide to use, if you use that wiring consistently in your guitars you will get used to it and come to expect and appreciate it.
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GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: CTS Pots - problem
Agreed. If you don't put a treble bleed in a modern wired circuit, you lose highs when you drop the volume.
50's wiring is like a crappy treble bleed that can't be tweaked for your setup and also changes the way your tone pot works depending on the volume pot setting.
This hasn't been my experience in any guitar with 50's wiring. It's less noticeable at high volume settings. Set your volume is at 3 or 4/10, and roll the tone pot back. You lose volume.
The knobs don't always do what's written on them. (Tone/Volume). To me, that's not consistent. I'm sure you could spend the time to learn how it works . . . but there's zero reason to.
Well, no, that's not the only "problem" with modern wiring. The biggest problem is that in a 2 pup 2 vol guitar, turning one vol pot completely down essentially turns your guitar off.[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with 50's or modern wiring. That's what happens when you couple volume knobs. You can wire them decoupled if that floats your boat. https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/21106-mod-garage-decouple-your-les-pauls-volume-controls
Agreed. If you don't put a treble bleed in a modern wired circuit, you lose highs when you drop the volume.
50's wiring is like a crappy treble bleed that can't be tweaked for your setup and also changes the way your tone pot works depending on the volume pot setting.
This hasn't been my experience in any guitar with 50's wiring. It's less noticeable at high volume settings. Set your volume is at 3 or 4/10, and roll the tone pot back. You lose volume.
The knobs don't always do what's written on them. (Tone/Volume). To me, that's not consistent. I'm sure you could spend the time to learn how it works . . . but there's zero reason to.
Well, no, that's not the only "problem" with modern wiring. The biggest problem is that in a 2 pup 2 vol guitar, turning one vol pot completely down essentially turns your guitar off.[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with 50's or modern wiring. That's what happens when you couple volume knobs. You can wire them decoupled if that floats your boat. https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/21106-mod-garage-decouple-your-les-pauls-volume-controls
Re: CTS Pots - problem
The volumes will interact some whether 50s or modern if you wire your guitar with "dependent volume" wiring, but it doesn't cut the volume completely out in 50s wiring. Call it "decoupled" if you want, but it is simply what is usually referred to as "independent volumes". It can be used with modern tone wiring or 50s tone wiring.
But the problem, as stated in the article, is that with modern tone and independent ("decoupled") volumes, the loss of treble when vol is turned down is even greater! This is one of the problem we are trying to solve.
Also you can totally disregard what the author says about the ground. It's a total BS urban myth. A ground loop doesn't exist in guitar wiring and won't produce an antenna.
The volumes will interact some whether 50s or modern if you wire your guitar with "dependent volume" wiring, but it doesn't cut the volume completely out in 50s wiring. Call it "decoupled" if you want, but it is simply what is usually referred to as "independent volumes". It can be used with modern tone wiring or 50s tone wiring.
But the problem, as stated in the article, is that with modern tone and independent ("decoupled") volumes, the loss of treble when vol is turned down is even greater! This is one of the problem we are trying to solve.
Also you can totally disregard what the author says about the ground. It's a total BS urban myth. A ground loop doesn't exist in guitar wiring and won't produce an antenna.
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Re: CTS Pots - problem
Well, I wouldn't say "NO issues". If you are using treble bleed (which by the way, I really like) and modern tone with dependent vol, you still have the "problem" of total vol loss when one vol is turned down.
No issues with treble loss if you use a treble bleed.
Well, I wouldn't say "NO issues". If you are using treble bleed (which by the way, I really like) and modern tone with dependent vol, you still have the "problem" of total vol loss when one vol is turned down.
Re: CTS Pots - problem
Treble bleeds are by far THE most artificial way of maintaining treble. Its the same thing as a bright circuit on an amp which gets almost obnoxious. I'd agree there is certainly no issue with getting treble content, as you get far more treble content out of your signal low down than when you were at 10.
I mean you could spend ages to try and buy all the right components to make each guitar right, but there's no need to. Especially when it sounds so much more natural 50's way.
Treble bleeds are by far THE most artificial way of maintaining treble. Its the same thing as a bright circuit on an amp which gets almost obnoxious. I'd agree there is certainly no issue with getting treble content, as you get far more treble content out of your signal low down than when you were at 10.
I mean you could spend ages to try and buy all the right components to make each guitar right, but there's no need to. Especially when it sounds so much more natural 50's way.
Re: CTS Pots - problem
I agree.
When I said I like treble bleed, the only one I really like is the Kinman. And I only like it in certain circumstances and I usually use 50s wiring because, like you say, it sounds more natural and it's simple to do (no other electrical components to add to the circuit).
I agree.
When I said I like treble bleed, the only one I really like is the Kinman. And I only like it in certain circumstances and I usually use 50s wiring because, like you say, it sounds more natural and it's simple to do (no other electrical components to add to the circuit).
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: CTS Pots - problem
This is certainly true, if you have randomly picked some values from the internet and then never tweaked them to sound right.
You can try out 30 - 40 different treble bleed circuits for under 10$. It would take upwards of 5 minutes to order the parts from here: https://www.taydaelectronics.com/. Then it's a matter of sitting down with your guitar and some alligator clips for an hour to figure out which treble bleed you like the best with your setup.
50's wiring makes your tone pot and volume pot work together in weird ways. If you always keep your tone pot at full, then it's great for keeping your guitar sounding the same at different values. If you like to run your tone pot back a bit, it is super duper unnatural. That's why Gibson dropped it 70 years ago. It is very easy to do though and doesn't require any additional parts.
This is certainly true, if you have randomly picked some values from the internet and then never tweaked them to sound right.
You can try out 30 - 40 different treble bleed circuits for under 10$. It would take upwards of 5 minutes to order the parts from here: https://www.taydaelectronics.com/. Then it's a matter of sitting down with your guitar and some alligator clips for an hour to figure out which treble bleed you like the best with your setup.
50's wiring makes your tone pot and volume pot work together in weird ways. If you always keep your tone pot at full, then it's great for keeping your guitar sounding the same at different values. If you like to run your tone pot back a bit, it is super duper unnatural. That's why Gibson dropped it 70 years ago. It is very easy to do though and doesn't require any additional parts.
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: CTS Pots - problem
Only when both pickups are selected. If it's just the bridge or neck selected, turning down the other pickup's volume will not turn down the entire guitar. Modern Les Paul wiring.
I've tried the 50's wiring, treble bleeds using various different values and all that. I prefer the modern wiring and actually don't mind the very little treble loss that is there from rolling back the volume. I've played my guitars for so long with them that way I've grown accustomed to it. It works for me.
Only when both pickups are selected. If it's just the bridge or neck selected, turning down the other pickup's volume will not turn down the entire guitar. Modern Les Paul wiring.
I've tried the 50's wiring, treble bleeds using various different values and all that. I prefer the modern wiring and actually don't mind the very little treble loss that is there from rolling back the volume. I've played my guitars for so long with them that way I've grown accustomed to it. It works for me.
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Re: CTS Pots - problem
And that's really the main point...you use what works best for you.
And that's really the main point...you use what works best for you.
