Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

As I said, you may be able to skip the bridge ground by using a star grounding method.

But you do need to clean up the circuit.

You've got a lot of extra wire in that cavity. More wires mean more noise.

I'm confident that if you strip it back to that circuit, with direct connections, that you'll be jamming in no time. And at some point in there, you'll probably go "Why is that connected there?!" I know I've done that more than once.

 

[A7xSchecter6661]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

As I said, you may be able to skip the bridge ground by using a star grounding method.

But you do need to clean up the circuit.

You've got a lot of extra wire in that cavity. More wires mean more noise.

I'm confident that if you strip it back to that circuit, with direct connections, that you'll be jamming in no time. And at some point in there, you'll probably go "Why is that connected there?!" I know I've done that more than once.

At least its easy, just desolder the easier to get to side of a wire, snip it to appropriate size and re-attach.

I will strip back the bare wire enough and direct connect it I guess

We will see what happens, I will try to drill a passage to the tail piece and ground it there

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

With actives you don't need any shielding and in fact noise shouldn't be an issue at all. The low impedance basically fixes that completely. My active guitars have no shielding and plenty of unshelled wire. It just doesn't matter. Something else is wrong, all this talk of interference is likely a red herring.

If it was me, I would pull the circuit apart completely and do it from scratch.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

And don't worry about bridge ground. Again, with active, you don't need it.

 

[A7xSchecter6661]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

With actives you don't need any shielding and in fact noise shouldn't be an issue at all. The low impedance basically fixes that completely. My active guitars have no shielding and plenty of unshelled wire. It just doesn't matter. Something else is wrong, all this talk of interference is likely a red herring.

If it was me, I would pull the circuit apart completely and do it from scratch.

I already pulled it apart once and redid it :friday:

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

And don't worry about bridge ground. Again, with active, you don't need it.

I knew that EMG didn't require bridge grounds, and Bartolinis seem indifferent to them - wasn't sure about Duncans.

That's why I said it may not be needed.

 

[speed2dirt]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

Have you checked the battery? I know it sounds dumb, but if the wires were connected to the jack incorrectly it might have drained the battery (not acting as an on/off switch). Also, I'd shrink wrap all the bare connections so nothing's accidentally touching and cancelling the signal.

 

[speed2dirt]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

As for the bridge ground on actives:

If you're talking about the bridge ground, there's no reason to snip it. EMG perpetuated that philosophy to avoid a shock from a microphone or what not. If you're getting 120 volts from your mic stand, cutting your guitar's bridge ground is not the solution. Fix the ground discrepancy at the PA. Because guess what? I know a guy that got a nice burn on his thigh, because he had no bridge ground, was wearing shorts, and the voltage went from where the output jack touched his leg (which is ground-duh) to whatever was touching the "other" ground at the time.

The other half of the equation is that no matter how well your pickups are shielded (or whether the signal is low impedance) there's still the chance that interference makes it's way into the control cavity. Shielding the strings (and thus your body) can only help the noise situation overall.

As a side-note, if you're getting noise something isn't right, because the Livewires should be ultra quiet. So while I hope I've helped with the bridge ground issue, there could be something else you're fighting.

Nobody "needs" a ground wire to the bridge. Well shielded active pickups like EMG's, Bartolinis, Blackouts, and Livewires are very quiet internally, and highly reject outside noise. In fact, the Blackouts boast 12-14db less hum and noise than the EMG circuit. So in essence, we should be boasting even more emphatically about the bridge ground than anybody for the previous 30 years. So why aren't we?

Back in the 1970's, during the replacement pickup revolution, the world was full of vintage gear, bad electricity, and less educated musicians. (despite all that I still wish I could go back in time and rock that era! :headbang: ) If you had a ground mismatch you could get a shock from other gear or the mic/mic stand. To prevent this, you either put on a windscreen and were "careful" or you tried flipping grounds on your 2-pronged gear until you solved it. Today, I still play live with my '68 Showman head, and you know what? Sometimes I find a shock. Guess what I do? I go to the back of the amp and flip the ground switch and the problem is solved. It's a new day, rockers. You're not going to get shocked between your Mackie mixer and your Mesa combo in a room wired to any kind of code. But if you were, here's why removing the bridge ground is not the best solution:

1. Touch your output jack? You're grounded
2. Got metal dome knobs? during volume swells, you're grounded.
3. Shielded pickguard? Your screws are probably grounded.
4. Nut and washer on the LP toggle? Grounded
5. LP pots with the little metal pointers? Yup, grounded.

The list goes on (although personally I just ran out of examples ) Back in the day there was also less in the air. Today there is more interference in the air than ever. Noise can come into your signal in more ways than just that little pickup under the strings. Shielding your signal path with your body is a fair way to reduce that effect. If you're getting shocked, figure out why and fix it. Don't band-aid it by removing yourself from the ground equation. There is still a big risk in that. You can take voltage through cheap cable insulation, through your socks, etc. It's not a safe solution to just de-ground your strings, because that ground mismatch exists in plenty of other areas where you could do serious damage. IMO, preaching the removal of bridge ground as a means to avoid getting shocked is risky business. It promotes a false sense of safety, and could even lead to more carelessness when dealing with your electronic equipment.

Shocks are "shocking" for a reason! They're trying to tell you "THIS IS BAD" :scared: and "YOU SHOULD FIX THIS". When I was 12 I got the shocks between my guitar and my ceiling fan. Yes, sometimes I would be playing the guitar and reach up to pull the ceiling fan chain to turn it on. (hey, I rocked hard when I was 12) but guess what? It was because I INSTALLED MY OWN CEILING FAN!!! Looking back I'm 100% positive I had the polarity reversed, but it worked. If an electrician installed the fan, I would have been safe. So be safe, and if you want to ground your bridges to make your rig as quiet as possible, feel free.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

That's all really interesting, thanks!

Still. A significant noise problem in an active setup is not because of shielding. It's a problem, and spending time shielding will just delay solving that problem.

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

But it will save him from having to go back and fix it later, if there is an issue.

Start with a solid bedrock, and move up.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

I wouldn't consider something that Fender, Gibson, Gretsch, Jackson, Ricky and PRS don't do to be the "solid bedrock" of guitar wiring. Getting the wiring right is your bedrock. Shielding is gravy.

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

*shrug* Just because the big guys ain't doin' it, doesn't mean it's bad idea.

Just means they don't find it financially expedient.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

Sure, but it also means that 99% of the world's guitars that work fine, don't have it.

Look, I have shielded some of my guitars. I'm not against shielding. But I think the problem in this specific instance is not shielding, and if the OP takes all his wiring out, shields the guitar, and puts it all back in again, he will have spent an hour or so, and he will be left with exactly the same problem. Us telling him to shield his guitar will not solve the problem he has asked us to help him solve. That's the very definition of unhelpful right?

 

[A7xSchecter6661]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

Just wired in 2 more pots because the volume one ended up becoming seized.

Anyways I am to the point of ripping the pickups out, selling them and burning the ****ing guitar

that's how pissed off I am

Seriously going to take me longer to wire in 2 pickups than it did to build the whole ****ing guitar?

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

Sure, but it also means that 99% of the world's guitars that work fine, don't have it.

Look, I have shielded some of my guitars. I'm not against shielding. But I think the problem in this specific instance is not shielding, and if the OP takes all his wiring out, shields the guitar, and puts it all back in again, he will have spent an hour or so, and he will be left with exactly the same problem. Us telling him to shield his guitar will not solve the problem he has asked us to help him solve. That's the very definition of unhelpful right?

Ummm...if you go back and look at my posts, I'm mentioning the shielding as a sidenote, not as a cause of the problem.

I've asked him to post either a drawing or photo of exactly what he's currently (heh!) got connected, so we can troubleshoot it. That first pic of the wiring he posted has way too much going on for the circuit he's following. He also mentioned he'd moved things from the pic - we need to know what that is.

For instance, there should be two blacks coming from the jack: sleeve to ground, and ring directly to battery black - *not* to grounding. The only other unusual connection from any other guitar this guy's ever wired is the red battery terminal to the red wire on the Blackouts (which is in the photo). After that, it's white wires to 3 way switch, and switch output to dead stock volume and tone wiring, and output to tip.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

You're right of course. The wiring looks WAY too complicated. Also there seem to be lots of unnecessary joins in wires that are too long already.

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

OP, do you have a multimeter?

If you're getting sound when the ground is connected to the tip, we know the pickups are working - you're amplifying the opposite side of the signal from what you want.

Take a deep breath, come back to it in a day or two after thinking about something else.

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

Jumble - FWIW, all 5 of the guitars I worked on this weekend had shielding paint in the cavity - both Squires, the Ibanez ART, the SG, and the Spector ARC 6.

Oddly enough, the "cheaper" the guitar, the better the application - with the exception of the Spector (granted, it's a special case - it's a factory second, but the application was correct, and the control cover was lined with foil).

But foil's easier and cleaner for the average joe.

OP, any luck?

 

[A7xSchecter6661]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

Any luck? Anyone wanna buy some gold blackouts? LOL

Here you go

 

[jtougas]

Re: Cusotm guitar, blackouts (56k)

I think I see what's going on, but I'll need some time with PhotoShop to show you how to fix it. I'll get back to you later tonight.

In the meantime, untape the battery leads from the body - you're connecting them straight to ground.