Cutting through
- Thread starter gripweed
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stevie_bees
Cat In The Hatministrator
Re: Cutting through
Sometimes in certain situations I think you have to compromise tone, and/or volume. It's good to restrict yourself sometimes, makes you appreciate the times when your tone sounds great and you get to let rip.
Sometimes in certain situations I think you have to compromise tone, and/or volume. It's good to restrict yourself sometimes, makes you appreciate the times when your tone sounds great and you get to let rip.
Last edited:
ratherdashing
Kablamminator
Re: Cutting through
Hell no, just tell those other mofo's to turn it down! :butkick:
Seriously though, I think it depends on the circumstances. Are you talking about for soloing, or just in general?
Hell no, just tell those other mofo's to turn it down! :butkick:
Seriously though, I think it depends on the circumstances. Are you talking about for soloing, or just in general?
sooperunkn
New member
Re: Cutting through
I'm going through this sort of dilemma right know too. My buddy I jam with uses a Soldano Astroverb which is a very mid-heavy amp. I'm using my boogie through a very bass-heavy cab and there are times where I just can't cut through. The easy solution is to step in my "Solo" button, but that only works well for leads.
I guess that's what EQ pedals are for? But I've yet to use one.
I'm going through this sort of dilemma right know too. My buddy I jam with uses a Soldano Astroverb which is a very mid-heavy amp. I'm using my boogie through a very bass-heavy cab and there are times where I just can't cut through. The easy solution is to step in my "Solo" button, but that only works well for leads.
I guess that's what EQ pedals are for? But I've yet to use one.
FretFire
SingedFingerologist
Re: Cutting through
Yes or no, depending on how you look at things. If you look at it this way, it's a yes: "I just dialed up a killer tone while I was woodshedding in my garage." In that case, what you dialed up on your own probably won't sound quite right in the mix with a band. When it comes down to it I guess I'd rather have a decent tone that sits well with the band rather than a killer tone that only sounds good on my own. So in that case, I'd answer no to your question.
Of course the real magic happens when you nail a tone that's fantastic AND fits with the other instruments.
gripweed said:
Yes or no, depending on how you look at things. If you look at it this way, it's a yes: "I just dialed up a killer tone while I was woodshedding in my garage." In that case, what you dialed up on your own probably won't sound quite right in the mix with a band. When it comes down to it I guess I'd rather have a decent tone that sits well with the band rather than a killer tone that only sounds good on my own. So in that case, I'd answer no to your question.
Of course the real magic happens when you nail a tone that's fantastic AND fits with the other instruments.
aleclee
Major General GAS
Re: Cutting through
The short answer is "yes", (IMO) it is about compromise. Here's why:
There are two components that enable you to be heard in a mix: volume and timbre. The first one maintains your tone but tends to piss off your bandmates.
The second involves tweaking your tone so you occupy a portion of the sonic spectrum that's not being taken up by somebody else.
There is actually a third option: moving up or down the fretboard so your fundamental notes will stand out more. I think the downside to this is self-evident.
The biggest reason folks don't cut through is because they're intruding upon another player's part of the sonic spectrum. There's not actually all that much space between bass and cymbals, especially in a two guitar band. What sounds good and full in isolation is pretty likely going to intrude upon others in a mix so in that respect it's likely that you'll have to tweak your tone when going from the house to the rehearsal room. It took me a while to figure this out. It really wasn't 'til I started critically listening to recordings of my rehearsals that I realized how my tone needed to change to be easily heard at reasonable volume.
I'm going to make an exception to personal policy and actually respond to a thread that starts out telling people what to do. :fing25:gripweed said:
The short answer is "yes", (IMO) it is about compromise. Here's why:
There are two components that enable you to be heard in a mix: volume and timbre. The first one maintains your tone but tends to piss off your bandmates.
The second involves tweaking your tone so you occupy a portion of the sonic spectrum that's not being taken up by somebody else. There is actually a third option: moving up or down the fretboard so your fundamental notes will stand out more. I think the downside to this is self-evident.
The biggest reason folks don't cut through is because they're intruding upon another player's part of the sonic spectrum. There's not actually all that much space between bass and cymbals, especially in a two guitar band. What sounds good and full in isolation is pretty likely going to intrude upon others in a mix so in that respect it's likely that you'll have to tweak your tone when going from the house to the rehearsal room. It took me a while to figure this out. It really wasn't 'til I started critically listening to recordings of my rehearsals that I realized how my tone needed to change to be easily heard at reasonable volume.
Stringmachine
New member
Re: Cutting through
My thoughts as well.
FretFire said:
My thoughts as well.
Dankerella
New member
Re: Cutting through
I used to jam with a bassist and drummer that were so loud, I had to crank up my middle until it was ear-piercing. It made for a great band mix, but when I heard my sound by itself at home, I was like "do I really sound like that?" I had also used ear plugs a lot, so I could barely even hear my real sound. When it comes to a band situation, sorry, I throw tone out the window in order to be heard. End result - if they can hear me at all, chances are they'll like it. If they can't hear me - they don't even have a chance.
I used to jam with a bassist and drummer that were so loud, I had to crank up my middle until it was ear-piercing. It made for a great band mix, but when I heard my sound by itself at home, I was like "do I really sound like that?" I had also used ear plugs a lot, so I could barely even hear my real sound. When it comes to a band situation, sorry, I throw tone out the window in order to be heard. End result - if they can hear me at all, chances are they'll like it. If they can't hear me - they don't even have a chance.
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Cutting through
It gets even more difficult if you've ever got to mix a CD with a band that's got 2 guitars, bass, drums, Hammond Organ, Piano, percussion, and female backup singers. Something similar to Floyd or Allmans.
I did a CD like that and cringe when I hear it, because the mixing engineer took my nice strat tone, and re-EQ'd it to sound bright and thin, just to separate it from the Hammond and backup singers. I like the CD, but can't stand the sound of my strat on the whole thing. Note to self.....never let CD's be mixed without my hands on the mixing board's guitar channels.
It gets even more difficult if you've ever got to mix a CD with a band that's got 2 guitars, bass, drums, Hammond Organ, Piano, percussion, and female backup singers. Something similar to Floyd or Allmans.
I did a CD like that and cringe when I hear it, because the mixing engineer took my nice strat tone, and re-EQ'd it to sound bright and thin, just to separate it from the Hammond and backup singers. I like the CD, but can't stand the sound of my strat on the whole thing. Note to self.....never let CD's be mixed without my hands on the mixing board's guitar channels.
Quencho092
New member
Re: Cutting through
my other guitarrist, when he has the power advantage, always turns up and pretends like he doesnt know that he's destroying everyone. He doesn't know as much about gear and EQ as i do, so i tend to throw down my little trick often to really pierce the mix:
Strat neck tone at 5, master vol at 7, amp treble at 7-8, bright switch on. I play song parts in the bassy position 2 (but with the amp treble up, this spot really CUTS!), then when i really need to squeeze my way through the frequencies, i put my neck pickup alone and, if needed, dime my strat volume.
This way i have much more flexibility, as with the treble on my amp lower in position 2 i get almost no volume into the mix. Other guitarrist uses a marshall MG mounted on a shelf in our drummers jam room, my 15 inch JBL is on the floor (cab too heavy to mount on anything) so i need a serious treble cut to get into the mix.
Besides being ear splitting, my treblier strat tone into my bandmaster actually sings and sustains incredibly in the mix, and it really puts a smile on my face. You guys should try the little control scheme to keep more control at your reach.
my other guitarrist, when he has the power advantage, always turns up and pretends like he doesnt know that he's destroying everyone. He doesn't know as much about gear and EQ as i do, so i tend to throw down my little trick often to really pierce the mix:
Strat neck tone at 5, master vol at 7, amp treble at 7-8, bright switch on. I play song parts in the bassy position 2 (but with the amp treble up, this spot really CUTS!), then when i really need to squeeze my way through the frequencies, i put my neck pickup alone and, if needed, dime my strat volume.
This way i have much more flexibility, as with the treble on my amp lower in position 2 i get almost no volume into the mix. Other guitarrist uses a marshall MG mounted on a shelf in our drummers jam room, my 15 inch JBL is on the floor (cab too heavy to mount on anything) so i need a serious treble cut to get into the mix.
Besides being ear splitting, my treblier strat tone into my bandmaster actually sings and sustains incredibly in the mix, and it really puts a smile on my face. You guys should try the little control scheme to keep more control at your reach.
Quencho092
New member
Re: Cutting through
If you have drums, bass, and two guitars, would it be a sound idea to have one guitar focus on lower mids and bass and have the other focus on upper and treble?
Is it also a better idea for one player to use single coils and the other to use a les paul?
aleclee said:I'm going to make an exception to personal policy and actually respond to a thread that starts out telling people what to do. :fing25:
The short answer is "yes", (IMO) it is about compromise. Here's why:
There are two components that enable you to be heard in a mix: volume and timbre. The first one maintains your tone but tends to piss off your bandmates.
There is actually a third option: moving up or down the fretboard so your fundamental notes will stand out more. I think the downside to this is self-evident.
The biggest reason folks don't cut through is because they're intruding upon another player's part of the sonic spectrum. There's not actually all that much space between bass and cymbals, especially in a two guitar band. What sounds good and full in isolation is pretty likely going to intrude upon others in a mix so in that respect it's likely that you'll have to tweak your tone when going from the house to the rehearsal room. It took me a while to figure this out. It really wasn't 'til I started critically listening to recordings of my rehearsals that I realized how my tone needed to change to be easily heard at reasonable volume.
If you have drums, bass, and two guitars, would it be a sound idea to have one guitar focus on lower mids and bass and have the other focus on upper and treble?
Is it also a better idea for one player to use single coils and the other to use a les paul?
benjaturner
New member
Re: Cutting through
For the most part I agree with aleclee. However, I think if you were to stick religiously to these ideals you'd miss a lot of useful 'tricks' for guitar harmonies. The kinks used to double up (both play the same thing) a lot and it sounded awesome. John Frusciante (Red Hot Chili Peppers) is another guitarist who's really into laying harmonies to incredible effect. He pulls a lot of said harmonies from the same frequency bands.
Aleclee did touch on a really good point though. If you're ever not convinced about your part in a song your band have writen, or are covering, trying transcribing it to another position on the 'board before you start again from scratch. Sometimes this really puts the 'soul' into what you're playing. Especially if your part is being played on the higher strings. Try moving it up the 'board and playing the same thing on your bass strings. I got obsessed with this for a while and ended up effectively playing a bass guitar above the 12th fret exclusively. Rubbish. But it's good to keep in mind, as long as you don't start relying on it like I did.
For the most part I agree with aleclee. However, I think if you were to stick religiously to these ideals you'd miss a lot of useful 'tricks' for guitar harmonies. The kinks used to double up (both play the same thing) a lot and it sounded awesome. John Frusciante (Red Hot Chili Peppers) is another guitarist who's really into laying harmonies to incredible effect. He pulls a lot of said harmonies from the same frequency bands.
Aleclee did touch on a really good point though. If you're ever not convinced about your part in a song your band have writen, or are covering, trying transcribing it to another position on the 'board before you start again from scratch. Sometimes this really puts the 'soul' into what you're playing. Especially if your part is being played on the higher strings. Try moving it up the 'board and playing the same thing on your bass strings. I got obsessed with this for a while and ended up effectively playing a bass guitar above the 12th fret exclusively. Rubbish. But it's good to keep in mind, as long as you don't start relying on it like I did.
Benjy_26
25's Nemesis
Re: Cutting through
I have some tones that sound great in my band (3 guitars, drums, bass, ultiple singers) that sound very, very sick when playing by myself.
That's why I've come to appreciate my Boss GT-8. I can get a totally traditional sound from it, or I can get sounds that can hardly be recognized as coming from a guitar.
Filters are cool. :burnout:
I have some tones that sound great in my band (3 guitars, drums, bass, ultiple singers) that sound very, very sick when playing by myself.
That's why I've come to appreciate my Boss GT-8. I can get a totally traditional sound from it, or I can get sounds that can hardly be recognized as coming from a guitar.
Filters are cool. :burnout:
LesStrat
Reining PunLowered
Re: Cutting through
Lots of good responses so far. I simply share my typical situation:
I play in church. We typically have a full complement: drums, bass, keyboard, acoustic guitar, and two electric guitars. Then you add into the mix 8 handheld mics and a choir backing. That's ALOT of sonic spectrum filled, so finding available space is not easy.
The guy that is usually assigned to play lead plays with a dark, LP-type tone (he gives new meaning to the term "musical instruments"
). The problem here is that I LIKE that tone...but to be heard, I need to use more of a Strat-style tone. Why me? Because I play a Parker Nitefly (s/c pups) through a POD xt Live. My rig is much more flexible, so I adjust.
Another personal example: when I play bass in church, the tone in the house is AMAZING! Too bad I can't hear it. We plug the bass in direct, so the sound has to come from the monitors...and the monitor channel is shared with the drummer (Roland V-Drums). In order to hear the bass in the monitor, it has to be mixed different from the bass drum. So, brighten it up some, and OUT it comes. The funny thing here is, because the bass is brighter in the monitor, mistakes are more evident. Therefore, this mix is making me play CLEANER!
Lots of good responses so far. I simply share my typical situation:
I play in church. We typically have a full complement: drums, bass, keyboard, acoustic guitar, and two electric guitars. Then you add into the mix 8 handheld mics and a choir backing. That's ALOT of sonic spectrum filled, so finding available space is not easy.
The guy that is usually assigned to play lead plays with a dark, LP-type tone (he gives new meaning to the term "musical instruments"
). The problem here is that I LIKE that tone...but to be heard, I need to use more of a Strat-style tone. Why me? Because I play a Parker Nitefly (s/c pups) through a POD xt Live. My rig is much more flexible, so I adjust.Another personal example: when I play bass in church, the tone in the house is AMAZING! Too bad I can't hear it. We plug the bass in direct, so the sound has to come from the monitors...and the monitor channel is shared with the drummer (Roland V-Drums). In order to hear the bass in the monitor, it has to be mixed different from the bass drum. So, brighten it up some, and OUT it comes. The funny thing here is, because the bass is brighter in the monitor, mistakes are more evident. Therefore, this mix is making me play CLEANER!
Maximusgordon 2.0
New member
Re: Cutting through
Yah, PLAY LOUDER!!! :laugh2:
gripweed said:
Yah, PLAY LOUDER!!! :laugh2:
Re: Cutting through
We do something very different - usually w/ just one electric, but 1-2 acoustics, organ, piano, flute, sax, sometimes strings. The better players are the one's who are conscious of playing too much, of stepping on other players' toes. If everyone works to serve the song - then life is always better.
LesStrat said:Lots of good responses so far. I simply share my typical situation:
I play in church. We typically have a full complement: drums, bass, keyboard, acoustic guitar, and two electric guitars. Then you add into the mix 8 handheld mics and a choir backing. That's ALOT of sonic spectrum filled, so finding available space is not easy.
The guy that is usually assigned to play lead plays with a dark, LP-type tone (he gives new meaning to the term "musical instruments"
Another personal example: when I play bass in church, the tone in the house is AMAZING! Too bad I can't hear it. We plug the bass in direct, so the sound has to come from the monitors...and the monitor channel is shared with the drummer (Roland V-Drums). In order to hear the bass in the monitor, it has to be mixed different from the bass drum. So, brighten it up some, and OUT it comes. The funny thing here is, because the bass is brighter in the monitor, mistakes are more evident. Therefore, this mix is making me play CLEANER!
We do something very different - usually w/ just one electric, but 1-2 acoustics, organ, piano, flute, sax, sometimes strings. The better players are the one's who are conscious of playing too much, of stepping on other players' toes. If everyone works to serve the song - then life is always better.
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