Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

[PoorMan]

I have no idea how to quantify this, but we all manage to come up with words to describe tone so...

How much affect does a degaussed mag have on tone? For example, would replacing a degaussed mag with a full strentgh mag make the tone a lot brighter? Minimal effect?

Thanks.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

it will change things quite a bit. i was planning on putting an alnico II mag in my brobucker but the deguassed alnico V sounds really nice so i think ill keep it.

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

I'm considering a full strength A5 for my BB. I guess I can drop one in and see if I like it. If not I can put the original mag back in.

Is a degaussed A5 or full strength A2 more powerful?

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

it will change things quite a bit. i was planning on putting an alnico II mag in my brobucker but the deguassed alnico V sounds really nice so i think ill keep it.

I would be afraid that it'd sound somewhat muffled with an a2. 10K AWG42 even with mismatched coils still is pretty hot me thinks.

BTW I know you know what you are doing.

B

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

I would be afraid that it'd sound somewhat muffled with an a2. 10K AWG42 even with mismatched coils still is pretty hot me thinks.

BTW I know you know what you are doing.

B

Think a full strength A5 would work to brighten it up? I assume it would sound more powerful too, but what other changes (if any) could I expect?

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

I'm considering a full strength A5 for my BB. I guess I can drop one in and see if I like it. If not I can put the original mag back in.

Is a degaussed A5 or full strength A2 more powerful?

Oersted is the measure of magnetic field density. It gives you "The magnetic field produced at the center of a plane circular coil of one turn and a radius of one centimetre, which carries a current of 5 amperes." (quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oersted). Different alnico grades have different oersted rates. Ok?

Permeability (electromagnetism) would give the measure of the magnetic charge a piece of metal could give. For more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)

This value can be changed by the amount of magnetization process! That's the thing that the dun-aging process is playing with (as far as I know).

Now the measure of gauss is a more refined measure of magnetic field strength. It is defiened by

B in units of Gauss = mu (the measure of permeability) * H (in units of Oersted).

Therefore, you could have 2 different grade magnets for example alnico 2 and alnico 5 which have different rates of Oersted (a5 has a higher value ) but their measure of permeability might be different, so that in the end you'd have both magnets' gauss readings to be identical. Yet they will NOT sound the same, because their magnetic field density is different.

Now if you are wondering about the magnet pull, well gauss does NOT measure the magnet pull. It sure has positive relation (in fact that relation is linear, hence, positive), but still technically the magnet pull is not measured in terms of gauss.

B

PS. Here is an old post of mine which you might find helpful:

In fact note that alnico 4's have the most dense magnetic field (among a2-a5), yet their gauss reading (when fully charged) is way lower than a5's. Thus, theoretically, you'd get more sustain with a4s while you'd have a5's basic eq. That's why I think it is ok to think of a4 to be a degaussed a5 (technically a mistake that I saw even pickup winders commit).

If I remember right (correct me if I am wrong) that term refers to the cooling process of the magnets. A5's unlike the lower alnico grades feature a different cooling process. Let me see if I can find the thread were tim white was talking about it on the LPF. Here:

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69741

In particular:



Moreover, Duncan's q&a #226 has more information on that subject about the alnico grades, density and pull values and alnico magnets' compositions:

Magnet material
Nominal Chemical Composition
Gauss
Oersteds Nominal
Maxim-um Energy
Alnico 1 12 Al, 21 Ni, 5 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 7200 470 1.40
Alnico 2 10 Al, 19 Ni, 13 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 7500 560 1.70
Alnico 3 12 Al, 25 Ni, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 7000 480 1.35
Alnico 4 12 Al, 27 Ni, 5 Co, Bal. Fe 5600 720 1.35
Alnico 5 8 Al, 14 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 12800 640 5.50
Alnico 5DG 8 Al, 14 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 13300 670 6.50
Alnico 5 col. 8 Al, 14 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, Bal. Fe 13500 740 7.55
Alnico 6 8 Al, 16 Ni, 24 Co, 3 Cu, 1 Ti, Bal. Fe 10500 780 3.90
Alnico 8 7 Al, 15 Ni, 35 Co, 4 Cu, 5 Ti, Bal. Fe 8200 1650 5.30
Alnico 8 HC 8 Al, 14 Ni, 38 Co, 3 Cu, 8 Ti, Bal. Fe 7200 1900 5.00
Alnico 9 7 Al, 15 Ni, 35 Co, 4 Cu, 5 Ti, Bal. Fe 10500 1500 9.00

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/seymours_q_and_a_4.shtml#226

I love them q&a's!

And for another old thread on magnets check

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83716

BTW my nick over there is turkish.

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Think a full strength A5 would work to brighten it up? I assume it would sound more powerful too, but what other changes (if any) could I expect?

Yeah it would increase the highs. Yet, the lows (I mean the bass) would also increase. And from my existing experience I could tell you that the increase in the bass would dominate the highst. So overall you'd have a more hifi pickup, more bass more highs. If that's what you want go ahead. Yet, the reason we asked for a aged a5 was to keep the highs but reduce that dominating bass to PAF levels. From what I have read, it looks like it worked (I won't be able to try out mine for another two more months). Nobody is complaining that the BrB is too soft, highs to be pulled back too much and all. You have a 10K AWG 42 PAF clone, of course it would not sound as bright as a 59b. But still the mismatched coils would improve the definition (which might have been lost due to that pickup wound to be 10K), and aged a5 is to spell out the highs as much as possible.

B

 

[ErikH]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Hmm. From your descriptions, dr., it seems like the BroB might get harsh and boomy with a full-strength A5. A2 probably would make it too "squishy" for lack of a better term.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Hmm. From your descriptions, dr., it seems like the BroB might get harsh and boomy with a full-strength A5. A2 probably would make it too "squishy" for lack of a better term.

Right on!

Of course all depends on the wood. People here tend to forget the most important part of whole story: the WOOD!

With an a2 it might sound great in a hard ash floyd rose guitar (with stripes on it :laugh2: ) but really squishy in a dark LP custom.

I'd say swapping magnets provides a great fine tuning possibility.

(Here is an old thread of mine which might be useful

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=33

Those clips over there are done with the very same pickups pots and both new strings. The only factor that is different is the body and the neck.

To me the alder sounds almost like a2 strat pickups)

B

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Excellent info. Thanks, Doc. I didn't realize the full strength A5 would emphasize the bass as well (not at all what I want).

 

[ErikH]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Right on!

Of course all depends on the wood. People here tend to forget the most important part of whole story: the WOOD!

With an a2 it might sound great in a hard ash floyd rose guitar (with stripes on it :laugh2: ) but really squishy in a dark LP custom.

I'd say swapping magnets provides a great fine tuning possibility.

B

Exactly, the wood does contribute a lot. Hard Ash or Maple works good with A2 pickups. My Kramer (maple body) has a CC in it now. It's the perfect pickup for it.

I'm going to be ordering a BroB myself within the next few weeks, knowing full well that the price will be the normal CS price. I have no problem with that.

I thought about going full A5 but I don't want a boomy and harsh pickup either. The plan is to put it on my Epi LP so the degaused A5 would be perfect, especially from what others have said about it in a LP.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Good info, Dr. Barlo.

Personally, I like the Brobucker exactly the way it is, and wouldn't change it.
I'm wondering how much Seymour had to do with the design, based on his vast experience, or if MJ just knows what to do because she's created enough great sounding pickups? They both have experience, but I'd be curious to hear what both of them thought of the spec sheet we turned in to them.

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Yeah it would increase the highs. Yet, the lows (I mean the bass) would also increase. And from my existing experience I could tell you that the increase in the bass would dominate the highst. So overall you'd have a more hifi pickup, more bass more highs. If that's what you want go ahead. Yet, the reason we asked for a aged a5 was to keep the highs but reduce that dominating bass to PAF levels. From what I have read, it looks like it worked (I won't be able to try out mine for another two more months). Nobody is complaining that the BrB is too soft, highs to be pulled back too much and all. You have a 10K AWG 42 PAF clone, of course it would not sound as bright as a 59b. But still the mismatched coils would improve the definition (which might have been lost due to that pickup wound to be 10K), and aged a5 is to spell out the highs as much as possible.

B

Judging from the photos of the build though the coil mismatch is very small. Nothing like you see with a hybrid for example. My guess is that the mismatch is having very little audible impact. A 10k wind with big fat mids and smooth highs sounds similar to the early Santana PRS pickups.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

I would be afraid that it'd sound somewhat muffled with an a2. 10K AWG42 even with mismatched coils still is pretty hot me thinks.

BTW I know you know what you are doing.

B

If it is muffled with A2, try an Alnico 3, will put the presence and sparkle back in it. I made a 10.5k for a guy with an A3 and it has plenty of detail.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

Judging from the photos of the build though the coil mismatch is very small. Nothing like you see with a hybrid for example. My guess is that the mismatch is having very little audible impact. A 10k wind with big fat mids and smooth highs sounds similar to the early Santana PRS pickups.

A difference of 0.40K with #42AWG wire does not seem to be that small to me.

And regarding the hybrid: It is NOT ok to compare the resistance values of #42 wires and #43 wires. When a 4.00K AWG42 bobin is used with a 7.20K AWG43, the difference would not be the same as the difference of 3.20K AWG42 wire! One can fit at most 5.00K AWG42 into a PAF HB bobin. Thus, whatever the difference of the hybrids are, it ain't bigger than 1K #42AWG, provided that a ~4.00K #42 bobin is used.

The whole thing is about using two different gauges. Apart from the mismatching of coils, the trick is in the use of the thinner #43 adding highs.

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

If it is muffled with A2, try an Alnico 3, will put the presence and sparkle back in it. I made a 10.5k for a guy with an A3 and it has plenty of detail.

I read his review on the LPF. Congrats Zhang.

BTW if you wanna hear the difference between between a2 and a3 (with my crappy playing) check out this pretty old thread of mine:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=35

B

 

[jeremy]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

I would be afraid that it'd sound somewhat muffled with an a2. 10K AWG42 even with mismatched coils still is pretty hot me thinks.

BTW I know you know what you are doing.

B

if i didnt already have a 10k with balanced coils and an alnico II mag, i might agree with you
ya never know till ya try as they say

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

if i didnt already have a 10k with balanced coils and an alnico II mag, i might agree with you
ya never know till ya try as they say

Cool!

B

 

[Curly]

Re: Degaussed vs. Full Strength Mag Question

as far as the BroB goes, even though it was "designed by committee", I think we got it right

IIRC, the RevDonzo stepped in and told us that A2 was probably not a good idea for a 10K wind, but the majority voting went with an aged mag to smooth things out a little, and from the early reviews, it sounds like that was the right way to go