Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

[jphilly77]

I like this pedal. Just got it last week.

My one glaring negative. I'm a true-bypass snob so my one major beef is that when the true-bypass switch is engaged on my Deja Vu' (UP, opposite of trailing repeats) there's a considerable volume drop when you DISengage the Deja Vu' itself. When I turn it back on it's waaay louder all of a sudden. I'm running it after my overdrive and envelope filter and then through 11 ft. of guitar cable to my amp. My solution has been to keep the switch on trailing repeats and NOT use the true-bypass mode. Very annoying and it compromises the "true-bypassness" of my rig and it's integrity but it seems to be my only option right now.

I must re-iterate, I actually like the pedal but it's stretching me in this regard. I'd prefer to be able to run it in ONLY in true-bypass mode, without it amplifying my signal, but the volume change rules that out. Would running it in the effects loop of the amp fix this issue?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks

-jphilly

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Hmm...when is true bypass not true bypass?!

Sounds like an issue I doubt running it in an FX loop would fix however I suggest you try...be sure to let us know your findings.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

I'm running it after my overdrives and envelope filter and then through 15 ft. of guitar cable to my amp.

Aaaaand ... there's your problem.

You're running an entirely true bypass pedal board (at least I assume you are given the "true bypass snob" comment), which means there's no buffer between your guitar and the amp. I know a lot of people think that true bypass always results in better tone, but in your case all that cable with no buffering is actually dragging your tone down.

The Deja Vu itself isn't the source of the problem: it's just showing you a problem that's been in your rig all along. When it's off, you have an extremely high impedance (i.e. weak) signal going through a lot of cable before it gets to your amp. When you turn the DV on, the buffer kicks in and lowers the impedance, and thus also boosts the volume. Turning off true bypass means that the DV's buffer is always on and beefing up your signal to the level it should be at.

I'm guessing your other pedals either have no buffering (wah's generally don't, for example), or you've used their level/volume controls to attenuate them down to match the weak bypassed signal. Since the DV has no level control, you're stuck with the buffered level it's putting out.

My suggestion would be to do one of the following:

1. Give up on your (rather pointless) insistence that all your pedals be true bypass, and take advantage of the DV's buffer. If for some reason you're unsatisfied with the DV's bypass tone in trails mode you can ...

2. Get a really good buffer and put it at the end of your effects chain. Suggestions: MXR/CAE MC-401, Axxes BS-2, or a Lovepedal Mini Buffer if you can find one. If you are a DIY kind of guy, you can also try building a buffer. They're actually very simple circuits. www.generalguitargadgets.com has a couple buffer project on their site if you want to go that route.

Hope that all makes sense. Good luck.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

The Deja Vu itself isn't the source of the problem: it's just showing you a problem that's been in your rig all along. When it's off, you have an extremely high impedance (i.e. weak) signal going through a lot of cable before it gets to your amp. When you turn the DV on, the buffer kicks in and lowers the impedance, and thus also boosts the volume.

How do you know that?

Have you spent time with the Deja Vu yourself? Or just guessing?

To the original poster... are you sure its a 'volume drop' or is it more of a 'tone change' that your really experiencing?

I'd agree with the "true-bypassness" comments to some degree...

But only to a degree.

Buffers aren't evil... not all the time. Great buffers are great...

But the jurys out on that for me with regards to the Vu... needs more time in the heat of battle before I come to ANY sort of conclusion there.

 

[James Rock]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Check all your connecting cables I've found that sometimes a buffer can push through a faultyish cable with a stronger signal then true bypass as in a similar case to the true bypass thing the impedence issue.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

How do you know that?

Have you spent time with the Deja Vu yourself? Or just guessing?

It's an educated guess based on all the information provided. The biggest clue is that the signal stays strong when true bypass mode is turned off. This tells me that the DV's buffer is bringing the signal up.

The real test would be if he ran a buffer (or a buffered pedal) in front of it and turned the true bypass mode on. If the level was consistent whether the DV was on or off, then I'm right. If the level still jumped, that would point to an issue in the DV itself.

I'm always a big fan of finding the simplest, least costly solution. In this case, the simplest and least costly solution is to turn off the DV's true bypass.

 

[wickenspoet]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Does a signal buffer go in the end of an effects chain, or would it work better as the first or second pedal from the beginning?

Does having a tuner in line (such as a Boss TU or Korg DT-10) count as a signal buffer?

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Does a signal buffer go in the end of an effects chain, or would it work better as the first or second pedal from the beginning?

Does having a tuner in line (such as a Boss TU or Korg DT-10) count as a signal buffer?

There is no rule for buffer placement, other than "place it where it works best".

Boss pedals are all buffered bypass (meaning the signal goes through the buffer at all times), so yes, they count as a buffer. I'm not sure about Korg.

 

[jphilly77]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Yeah "ratherdashing" is speculating at best. There's not a "problem with my rig" that's been revealed because of this. It's just very clear that the buffer in the Deja Vu' adds a volume bump when not in true bypass mode. Simple as that. In another forum I've seen it called a "tone-suck" rather than a volume drop/boost. Not necessarily a "bad" thing though since the buffer does sound nice, just different. Sort of like the way an old school memory man "sweetens" up your tone even when turned off. Unless of course you've had it modded it for true-bypass or have a later model that is already true-bypass.

I run 3 pedals and total cable length of 18ft. from guitar+pedal board then to amp. All high quality cables and they're all functioning perfectly. "Ratherdashing"'s logic and reasoning would definitely apply in a scenario that involved a lot of pedals, connections and longer cable runs, but not in this case. His whole "Aaaaaand there's your problem" was a bit much and revealed that he's just not a stickler for true-bypass. That's fine it's just where our opinions differ.

People like true-bypass in their pedals for a reason, because it doesn't color, buffer, or affect their signal as much or at all when the effect is turned off. Some people prefer that sound, it's a matter of opinon. Of course longer cable runs and lots of pedals will start making more of a difference when more are added, so his reasoning is quite valid, just not in this particular case. In his defense he didn't have enough info to make his assumptions (cable length and whatnot).

My guitar plugged straight into my amp sounds almost identical to what it sounds like through my pedal board when everything is dis-engaged. At least it did before I got the Deja Vu'. It sounds that way because it's a short, high quality cable run (compared to most) and the FEW pedals chosen are true-bypass.

The Deja Vu' is a fantastic delay unit nonetheless and it's not a deal breaker for me to have this problem. It's just stretching me. If I had a choice or an explanation that gave me another option I'd be *slightly* happier.

Since posting this thread I've found out that many other people are experiencing the same thing.

I'd really love to hear Frank Falbo address this issue.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

There is a rule for buffer placement. If you place a buffer AFTER something has already degraded the signal, it can't do anything to restore the loss. A buffer up front would solve the issue. But that being said, I do have a fix for you true bypassers out there. We already made the change on our end and it's not an issue anymore. I can't really get into it on the forum, but if any of you have a Deja Vu that sounds "different" in true bypass, we know exactly what to do and we'll mod yours to current specs free of charge.

Now, bear in mind it will always sound a little different in True Bypass because our buffer is now conditioning the signal for the subsequent cable length. So just sitting there tweaking the TB/TR switch back and forth while listening is bound to produce some audible variance. Plus remember in Trailing Repeats the signal is going through the wet/dry blend pot. So if you had that set anywhere past 12:00 it will be reducing the dry level.

 

[jphilly77]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Wow! That was fast. What would be the procedure for sending mine in for the mod? Any chance I could get a "silent/non-clicking" tap tempo switch to replace the one that is stock? I'd be really interested.

Oh yeah, am I correct in assuming the customer would have to cover shipping fees for the true-bypass tweak right?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Nope, we'll cover it both ways.

 

[ozzynotwood]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

I like this pedal. Just got it last week.

My one glaring negative. I'm a true-bypass snob so my one major beef is that when the true-bypass switch is engaged on my Deja Vu' (UP, opposite of trailing repeats) there's a considerable volume drop when you DISengage the Deja Vu' itself. When I turn it back on it's waaay louder all of a sudden. I'm running it after my overdrive and envelope filter and then through 11 ft. of guitar cable to my amp. My solution has been to keep the switch on trailing repeats and NOT use the true-bypass mode. Very annoying and it compromises the "true-bypassness" of my rig and it's integrity but it seems to be my only option right now.

I must re-iterate, I actually like the pedal but it's stretching me in this regard. I'd prefer to be able to run it in ONLY in true-bypass mode, without it amplifying my signal, but the volume change rules that out. Would running it in the effects loop of the amp fix this issue?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks

-jphilly

My understanding of how this pedal works is different to how you describe, so anybody please educate me. When in true bypass mode, my understanding was the guitar signal would pass through the pedal without going through any circuits (as if it was a patch cable) then a 2nd signal would be added (the repeats) and sent out with the true bypass signal, keeping your original tone in tact (no buffers at all) and blending in a digital signa (for the repeats)l. Am I wrong?

The new VOX Joe Satchriani Time Machine claims to do this, but has seperate outputs for wet and dry.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Our separate outputs for wet and dry can create the same situation. But our wet out also doubles as a wet loop. Our trailing repeats mode basically just shuts off the SEND to the delay line. The delays are allowed to trail off. In fact, if you were playing with runaway oscillation it will continue to get louder after the pedal is off. The delay line is behaving exactly as if the pedal were "on". The Vox Time Machine is not capable of true bypass and trailing repeats at the same time (through the same output jack) because nothing is. You can't blend in signal and still claim that it's true bypass.

If you have a two channel Fender type amp, you can run the wet out into one channel and the dry into the other, and then you could truly claim that you were playing a true bypass dry signal AND having trailing repeats.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Yeah "ratherdashing" is speculating at best. There's not a "problem with my rig" that's been revealed because of this. It's just very clear that the buffer in the Deja Vu' adds a volume bump when not in true bypass mode. Simple as that. In another forum I've seen it called a "tone-suck" rather than a volume drop/boost. Not necessarily a "bad" thing though since the buffer does sound nice, just different. Sort of like the way an old school memory man "sweetens" up your tone even when turned off. Unless of course you've had it modded it for true-bypass or have a later model that is already true-bypass.

I run 3 pedals and total cable length of 18ft. from guitar+pedal board then to amp. All high quality cables and they're all functioning perfectly. "Ratherdashing"'s logic and reasoning would definitely apply in a scenario that involved a lot of pedals, connections and longer cable runs, but not in this case. His whole "Aaaaaand there's your problem" was a bit much and revealed that he's just not a stickler for true-bypass. That's fine it's just where our opinions differ.

People like true-bypass in their pedals for a reason, because it doesn't color, buffer, or affect their signal as much or at all when the effect is turned off. Some people prefer that sound, it's a matter of opinon. Of course longer cable runs and lots of pedals will start making more of a difference when more are added, so his reasoning is quite valid, just not in this particular case. In his defense he didn't have enough info to make his assumptions (cable length and whatnot).

My guitar plugged straight into my amp sounds almost identical to what it sounds like through my pedal board when everything is dis-engaged. At least it did before I got the Deja Vu'. It sounds that way because it's a short, high quality cable run (compared to most) and the FEW pedals chosen are true-bypass.

The Deja Vu' is a fantastic delay unit nonetheless and it's not a deal breaker for me to have this problem. It's just stretching me. If I had a choice or an explanation that gave me another option I'd be *slightly* happier.

Since posting this thread I've found out that many other people are experiencing the same thing.

I'd really love to hear Frank Falbo address this issue.

Sorry, I did not know this was a known issue with the pedal. Hope you get it sorted out quickly.

 

[RLee]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

We already made the change on our end and it's not an issue anymore. I can't really get into it on the forum, but if any of you have a Deja Vu that sounds "different" in true bypass, we know exactly what to do and we'll mod yours to current specs free of charge.

Any chance you could give us a serial number starting point for when the fix was put into production? I'm looking to get one of these in the next week or so, and would like to get an already-modded pedal instead of having to ship it off for the fix...

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

True bypass.....the religion of the Taleban of pedal users
Hehe

 

[ozzynotwood]

Re: Deja Vu volume drop/boost?

Any chance you could give us a serial number starting point for when the fix was put into production? I'm looking to get one of these in the next week or so, and would like to get an already-modded pedal instead of having to ship it off for the fix...

I would like to know too, also, have ones did Australia get? The old or new Deja Vu's?