Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

[dpaterson]

Hi.

Not sure if this is the right forum to be posting this question given that I'm trying to EXCLUDE a pedal from the setup. But here goes anyway.

Can anybody think of a way to delay a guitar signal by anywhere between 10ms and 20ms WITHOUT using a digital or analog delay pedal and OBVIOUSLY without coloring the tone??? Kinda like introducing latency into the system.

I ask because I'm using a Boss DD-7 to delay one side of my guitar signal (signal is split to go to two seperate amps.) but I find that it's definitely coloring the original signal being sent to the second amp. I'm getting an almost chorusy, flangey, type sound out of the second amp. and not to mention the difference in tone between the second amp. and the first amp. (both identical amps. with identical settings I must add). One would have expected this pedal to be transparent and simply delay what's being sent to it but this isn't the case evidently.

Any ideas???

Regards,

Dale.

 

[VinceT]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Can you widen the view of your signal chain - where/how is the split happening? And are or your lines going into the preamps, or FX loop returns?

Also, just to make sure I understand, you’re looking for a slight delay to thicken your sound, but not go so far to give you a slap-back, right?

Reason I ask is that I don’t know the DD-7, but I use my Strymon El Capistan always on for just that effect. Even at nil delay time, it introduces some delay - not that you can hear, but that you notice when it’s gone - I find I have to reduce repeats and overall mix a little to avoid the chorusing, especially if I have wow/flutter (modulation) turned up above 9pm.

All that to say, how have you got the DD-7 set?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[VinceT]

Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Just took a look at the DD7 page and it looks like, for minimal delay, you have the choice of Analog or Modulated modes?

Analog = dark (is that what you mean by tonal differences?)
Modulated = chorus

It might just be that you need a less-featured digital delay or one that offers a pristine digital delay - TC Flashback comes to mind on the 2290 setting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Blille]

Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Isn't this just a phase issue? The delay is flipping the phase which makes the amps out of phase with each other?

I assume you split the signal before it hits the delay. Can you put some kind of ping pong delay and use both outputs straight from the dd-7 to see if you have that issue?

To your question about alternatives, what you're asking for is a delay. There are some double trackers like the Keeley 30ms or TC Mimiq. What they do is delay. Look at the Mimiq in particular if the DD7 doesn't work, it might be what you're after and maybe simplifies your chain.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Hi all (everyone).

Thanks for your posts and info.

Take a listen to the intro. below and you'll hear exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Well: I do achieve it but as I've noted the audio from the (my) second amp. (right) is definitely not simply a delayed version of the dry signal being sent to the first (my) amp. (left).



I've analysed this (the above) audio to death (over a 29 year period I'll have you know!!! I kid you not!!! LOL!!!). The tone of the left channel is identical to the tone of the right channel. It's just delayed. And the delay on the right does not include the initial note/attack first and then an additional delay i.e. ONLY the delayed note/attack on the right. Hope that makes sense.

Signal chain:



You may wonder why I'm splitting the signal BEFORE the DD-7 (given that it's a stereo pedal). This is because it does indeed introduce phase problems and comb. filtering. if you use the pedal on its own (mono input to the stereo output jacks) (and have even tried splitting guitar signal before the delay and going into the pedal dual mono but same thing). So I'm only using Input A (Mono) and Output A (Mono) to go to the right amp. Using it this way I get no phase issues or comb. filtering. Furthermore: when I set up my mics. and both amps. I ensure that, using phase correlation meters, they are perfectly in phase (meters always read just below +1 on any given meter). I phase align the whole lot with either white noise or pink noise (depending on my mood!!! LOL!!!). In addition: once the delay is engaged I check phase correlation and comb. filtering again. No comb. filtering but the phase correlation meters do jump around but they never go negative.

In addition: this "phasey, flangy" sound is heard when ONLY the right amp. is on. In other words: it's not that I'm hearing phasing and comb. filtering because I'm listening to both amps.

The pedal is set like this in order to achieve the above:

E.LEVEL: 3 'o clock (which, apparently, is where the effect level and dry level are equal)
F.BACK: 7 'o clock (which is fully counter clockwise and give only one delay iteration)
D.TIME: 10 'o clock - 11 'o clock (this is around about a 20ms delay but depends on which outputs are connected and whether you're using the 50ms digital, or analog, delay setting).
MODE: 50ms (but have tried ANALOG also)

I'm using my (beloved) CODE amps. They're CODE50's and they don't have an effects loop so I'm delaying BEFORE distortion and gain. I have, however, fitted an effects loop to one of my CODE25's and have tried putting the delay in the effects loop but it makes no difference i.e. the tone is still being altered by the DD-7.

Even if I run both amps. clean and engage the delay there is an audible difference in the tone coming out of the right amp. so it's not the fact that I'm delaying into distortion that's causing the problem (probably is not helping matters but it's not at the heart of the problem).

I have TC Electronics' MIMIQ. Terrible pedal (no offense) (and one of my WORST and most BEGRUDGED purchases to date). It too introduces phase issues and comb. filtering. It does not simply delay a signal i.e. it uses a combination of chorus, flanging, delay, (and whatever else i.e. it's apparently a trade secret) at random and it really does sound terrible (and FAR worse than what I'm using/doing now).

I wouldn't say I'm trying to double a guitar track. Just trying to get my sound as above without these flipping digital artifacts that are being introduced.

I've been reading up on circuits that employ FIFO inducers and capacitors to achieve this. But hey make NO sense to me whatsoever. And furthermore: with all of the stuff I've read I see the words "phasing" and "comb. filtering" LIBERALLY used in the description of these circuits and not to mention a loss of certain frequency ranges!!! LOL!!!

I'm thinking that POSSIBLY it's because I'm using a DIGITAL delay with DIGITAL modelling amps. maybe??? Much as I love these things: they're "full of it" and very "picky" when it comes to pedals up front.

I guess I was sort of hoping that there would be some type of real simple solution e.g. adding extra cable to one side or something like that (just don't know how much extra cable would be required to delay a signal up to 20ms) (and of course any length of cable affects tone so it'd be right back to where I started from POSSIBLY just without the "phasey, flangy" sound is all).

So. Any ideas???

Regards,

Dale.

 

[Blille]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Lol well, it looks like you have a pretty high bar

I get what you want to do now. I don't understand how the DD-7 introduces combing when used 100% wet in a single channel but I'll take that as a fact.

Introducing a long cable or anything of the sort (like an audio interface and back) will mess with your tone more than a DD-7 IMHO.

Do you have a DD-3? I've seen people use it in stereo setups using the delayed and direct outs with no phase issues.

Good luck!

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

You are NOT going to believe this especially after all of the above (not to mention the time it took me to make that nice little chart of my signal flow) BUT PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

WHY this solution (below) makes such a difference I know not. And I cannot even lay claim to the said solution i.e. I found it on the Internet (after posting the above obviously). Anyway. Here goes:

Whatever OUTPUT JACK that is NOT being used on the DD-7 in the configuration above MUST have a "dummy" 1/4" jack plug inserted!!! It's that simple.

Can you believe the simplicity of that??? LOL!!!

NOW the DD-7 can be set as follows i.e. from the most minuscule delay time (probably between 1ms and 2ms) right up to wherever you want it:

E.LEVEL: 3 'o clock (which, apparently, is where the effect level and dry level are equal) (as above)
F.BACK: 7 'o clock (which is fully counter clockwise and gives only one delay iteration) (as above)
D.TIME: 7 'o clock (MIN) (this is around about a 1ms to a 2ms delay i.e. almost off)
MODE: 50ms (or even ANALOG as this works now too with no artifacts).

NO phase issues, NO comb. filtering, NO "phasey, flangy" sound from the second amp. And as wide or as narrow a stereo field as you like. With D.TIME at 7 'o clock (MIN) the delay is practically off. But it's JUST enough to give you the effect required without all of the artifacts.

As I said: NO idea why this should make such a big difference but there you have it. Go figure.

Am wondering now if the TC Electronics MIMIQ will not be "magically cured" by using the same logic. Will check. As noted: this pedal does terrible things when used as directed (so much so that I actually did try it. some time ago, in the same type of configuration as my original configuration in my first post but the results were less than stellar although far better than using it as directed I can tell you).

ALL of the above being said though: I'd still be curious to know if it's possible to create a delay of this nature i.e. a purely passive, let's call it "mechanical", delay.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[Blille]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

By adding another jack you separate the wet and dry outputs so it's 100% wet (from manual). It's similar to what I recommended with the DD-3.

I just saw that you put in your settings the effect was at 3 o clock instead of at 100% wet.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Hey Blille.

Thanks for the posts and the help.

Yeh. The effect (E.LEVEL) I kept at 3 'o clock because the manual states that it's at that position where the dry signal equals the wet signal. But as it's connected now: there's no more dry signal anyway so it's acting as nothing more than a level control now.

So for the record now I'm going into the DD-7 on Input B, full wet signal coming out of Output A and going to the right hand side amp., and a "dummy" 1/4" jack plug in Output B. Works for me!!! LOL!!!

Been trying to work out why this all made such a difference. Only thing I can think of is that without that jack plug the pedal is sort of phasing and flanging in on itself (maybe mixing wet and dry and that's where the phasing and flanging was coming from). Maybe it's getting confused. Whatever the case: send that to these amps. of mine and, well, you have a bit of a problem on your hands so it would seem. May not have even been noticeable on a tube amp. Who knows. What I didn't mention is that on BOTH amps. THEIR respective delays are also turned on (just with different settings) so this too could have played into the mix (no pun intended). Dunno.

Anyways. All good (thank goodness as I REALLY wasn't in the mood to buy yet another pedal i.e. I thought my days of buying pedals etc. were over because of these amps. but how wrong was I!!! I've got more pedals now than I ever had with my tube amps. if I count them all including the one's that sound terrible with these amps. and are lying on the shelf!!! LOL!!!).

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Easy, just go total old school....screw all this pedal crap.

I've done all the math for you -just add a long enough guitar cable into the delay chain to achieve the target delay

-so for 10 milliseconds you will need a cable only about 6,481,728 ft long. and for 20ms delay double it.....

I suggest calling Mogami, Belden, or Commscope direct -as 13 million foot spools of guitar cable MAY have longer lead times..... :beerchug:

I hope you plan to utilize this technique at Hair Metal Life Force practice. Going to sound so authentic!

 

[Blille]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Easy, just go total old school....screw all this pedal crap.

I've done all the math for you -just add a long enough guitar cable into the delay chain to achieve the target delay

-so for 10 milliseconds you will need a cable only about 6,481,728 ft long. and for 20ms delay double it.....

I suggest calling Mogami, Belden, or Commscope direct -as 13 million foot spools of guitar cable MAY have longer lead times..... :beerchug:

I hope you plan to utilize this technique at Hair Metal Life Force practice. Going to sound so authentic!

I would go Hosa rather than Mogami to keep it in budget.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Just get a DD-3 was my initial thought. And after reading everything....still is.

 

[LLL]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

I don't have a guaranteed solution, but surmising:

You're trying to emulate a studio process with a live rig.

The major difference being that in the studio, delay (or other effect for that matter) is applied *after* the mic'd up speaker cab)

Whereas here you're putting the delay *before* the speaker cab... and before the amp of course.

That delay in your rig gets amplified/distorted/turned to mush by the preamp, etc... before it even reaches the speaker cab...
...depending of course on how much gain you're pushing (a clean tone won't show this much).

Time-based effects always sound clearest *after* the speaker cab.

So, undoubtedly, what they prolly did here was in the console, added a short delay to Viv's mic'd dry tone which was bounced to a 2nd guitar track.

Then take the dry track, pan wide left - take the delayed track, pan wide right. Et voila.

Solution? Possibly this:

Chuck the ABY box out of the signal path... use the DD-7 to produce a dry signal on one side, and wet signal on the other.

guitar
|
compressor
|
EQ
|
BOSS DD7 -> dry out -> amp 1
|
wet out - amp 2


According to BOSS's DD-7 page:

You can also use the stereo outputs to create separate dry and wet signal paths — handy for recording and live-performance control.

https://www.boss.info/us/products/dd-7/

Still, nothing beats "post-powertube" time-based effects for clarity. And that subject is a whole different ball of wax.

 

[LLL]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

You may wonder why I'm splitting the signal BEFORE the DD-7 (given that it's a stereo pedal). This is because it does indeed introduce phase problems and comb. filtering. if you use the pedal on its own

If you're having phase issues with a (assumed) normal config, then there's prolly something else wrong. You should be able to do a W/D (wet/dry) rig via any stereo output delay stomp without phase issues.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

I love threads where the op solves the problem before I have a chance to post. Not the way I would have suggested, but whatever gets it done.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Good morning.


@NegativeEase and @Blille

Well I'll go for a shorter delay then. Say 1ms. That's only 648,172 ft long. No issues with Hosa (all my cables are Hosa) but for this I reckon higher quality would be better i.e. I don't want to lose any signal strength and then have to boost the signal because that's probably going to color the tone again. I'm sure I'd get a bulk discount but based on Amazon's price (just to get a rough idea is all) for a 25 ft Mogami instrument cable: a 1ms delay would cost around $1 709 877.74 (gold plated jacks included but excluding shipping and import duties).

I nearly choked on my coffee and almost fell out of bed when I read your two posts this morning on my iPad I was laughing so hard!!! LOL!!! Too funny. Thanks for that. Made my day!!! LOL!!!

I believe there is a way though!!! Just not sure what it is (yet)!!!


@Aceman

I may be speaking out of turn here but seems to me these manufacturers are getting too fancy and trying to cram as much as they can and as many options as they can into a single box (in this case a pedal). It's a good thing if you're on a budget or for the sake of convenience I guess. But when you just want something simple...

The solution I posted isn't perfect by any stretch. There is a definite, but subtle, tonal difference with the pedal engaged but it's subtle enough that it can be EQ'd out now so not a problem. At least the "phasey, flangy" artifacts are gone. Just a bit surprised that the pedal is not as transparent as I would have thought it should be really. But I suppose that type of transparency only comes in very high end gear (at a price of course). Fair enough.


@LLL

You're trying to emulate a studio process with a live rig.

You now me well already!!! LOL!!!

I can, and have, done all that manipulation with guitar tracks and it works of course (it's not without its pitfalls though e.g. simply delaying one side of a panned guitar track can also introduce phase correlation problems and issues as well as comb. filtering unless you get it "just right" and use a spectral delay after your initially simply delaying the track but this is another whole topic which I spent months on learning and "perfecting" not too long ago). I also just don't see the point of having monster recorded sound but mediocre live sound (for reasons far too many to mention here as it's just gonna upset some people).

Getting back to the specific problem at hand:

I tried your suggested configuration (which is exactly the way it's intended to be used as per the manual) i.e. ONLY using the DD-7 with no splitter. Please believe me: the signals moved in and out of phase at random and it sounded terrible. Aside from the fact that for some or the other reason (unbeknown to me) my ears are EXTREMELY attuned to detecting phase issues and comb. filtering: phase correlation meters confirmed this. Only thing I can think of is that this pedal (maybe others) are not actually capable of completely and totally isolating the left channel from the right channel and the dry signal from the wet signal (regardless of settings) i.e. there's some type of "spurious bleed" (for want of a better word) between channels and signals. Probably I only noticed this because of my configuration as you have noted i.e. compressor pedal to EQ pedal (both of which are introducing their own tone coloration and noise let's face it) and from there going to amp. distortion, gain, delay, and reverb. But as I noted above: the pedal is definitely not transparent and such transparency probably comes at a cost. But for all intents and purposes: I'm good to go (at least with this issue anyway).

As noted above to you: I can (for some or the other odd reason unbeknown to me as stated above) detect phase issues and comb. filtering a flipping mile away!!! LOL!!! When I set this stuff up I first, separately, phase align each pair of mics. on each of the cabs. and then I ensure that both cabs. are phase aligned with each other (and I don't rest until the phase correlation meter, sometimes more than one flavor, are as near as makes no difference to +1 AND STAY THERE) (it sometimes takes a while!!! LOL!!!). So at that point I'm 100% sure there ain't no phase issues. Use the pedal as indicated: the very moment you engage the pedal I can see the phase correlation meters drop right off and go negative (this without even playing a note i.e. just the amp. background noises and/or pink noise or white noise). But they don't stay negative i.e. they jump around between positive and negative so inverting amp. phase doesn't solve the problem. Configure it the way I've done it: they still drop off but don't go anywhere near negative. And this is not me just being pedantic or "full of it". It's not some type of "placebo effect". It's clearly audible (the difference between the two configurations).

Hmmmn... I suppose one workaround for this would be to delay the mics. as this would be delaying the total, overall, final sound. Wouldn't work in a live situation though. Interesting suggestions you made though nevertheless and food for thought.


@beaubrummels

Thanks for the post (made while I was posting ALL of the above).

What would be your suggestion for the sake of interest and education??? As noted below: I believe that these types of threads do serve a purpose even if they don't solve the initial problem or address the original topic. I mean to say: my problem may be resolved but who knows who will have a different requirement in the future, not know where to turn for help, and then discover some of these posts. And furthermore: my solution (as found on the Internet) may not be the best nor the most elegant.


I know some people get mad at me with these threads and posts. But I always see a pattern i.e. the thread may go off at a total tangent and not solve the initial problem or address the original topic but ALWAYS some or the other little nugget "comes out in the wash". Who would have known that it would take a 6,481,728 ft long cable to delay a guitar signal by 10ms??? Who would have thought to delay mic. inputs when recording??? LOL!!! Always something good (for me anyway).

Regards,

Dale.


P.S.

I wanted to mention this above when initially posting but forgot. Isn't it "Murphy and his law"!!! When you have latency (which essentially is all I'm trying to introduce to the right channel) in any system and you do NOT want it then it becomes a total mission to eliminate it and usually you never do. But when you actually DO want it: it's impossible to introduce without coloration i.e. pure and unadulterated latency is all that's needed here!!! LOL!!!


P.P.S

I really like this:

Incompetence is widespread in a world that rewards mediocrity while punishing excellence.

"Studio vs. Live"!!! LOL!!!

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

@dpeterson since the pedal supports a dry and wet signal out of the box itself, I would have just run through the pedal and used it for the split, rather than try to run the dry signal outside and around the pedal. (Unless I misunderstood what you are doing). Running through the pedal and letting the pedal handle splitting the dry and wet would keep levels and eq similar, IME.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Good morning.


@NegativeEase and @Blille

Well I'll go for a shorter delay then. Say 1ms. That's only 648,172 ft long. No issues with Hosa (all my cables are Hosa) but for this I reckon higher quality would be better i.e. I don't want to lose any signal strength and then have to boost the signal because that's probably going to color the tone again. I'm sure I'd get a bulk discount but based on Amazon's price (just to get a rough idea is all) for a 25 ft Mogami instrument cable: a 1ms delay would cost around $1 709 877.74 (gold plated jacks included but excluding shipping and import duties).

I nearly choked on my coffee and almost fell out of bed when I read your two posts this morning on my iPad I was laughing so hard!!! LOL!!! Too funny. Thanks for that. Made my day!!! LOL!!!

I believe there is a way though!!! Just not sure what it is (yet)!!!

Also, I say go with the Oxygen Free Mogami Cable, -sure that would come in at about $3,462,833.00

but I think the tonal advantages speak for themselves.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Also, I say go with the Oxygen Free Mogami Cable, -sure that would come in at about $3,462,833.00

but I think the tonal advantages speak for themselves.

I think you're right about the tonal advantages (never thought about using an oxygen free cable i.e. never tried one to be honest). I mean: the last thing I need is more tone coloration on the right hand side let's face it.

But now is that price for the 1ms or 2ms delay or longer???

@dpeterson since the pedal supports a dry and wet signal out of the box itself, I would have just run through the pedal and used it for the split, rather than try to run the dry signal outside and around the pedal. (Unless I misunderstood what you are doing). Running through the pedal and letting the pedal handle splitting the dry and wet would keep levels and eq similar, IME.

Nope. You understand 100% correctly what I'm doing. Using the pedal ONLY introduces phasing issues and comb. filtering for whatever reason (details in one of my posts above). Absolutely NO idea why this is the case.

(Edit)

In all fairness to Boss though: I've not seen any complaints about the DD-7 generally speaking. So it's quite possible that this is just a bad interaction between my amps. and my setup. Maybe I should finish the project that I started a little while ago and add effects loops to my CODE50 amps. It's a bit of a mission though but maybe I'll get around to it and see (no urgency as things stand now though). If I do that: because it's a stereo pedal there's no problem taking sends out of each amp. into L + R of the DD-7 and L + R out of the DD-7 return to each amp. Then I'm delaying AFTER distortion and gain which could solve the phase and comb. filtering issues when using the pedal as per the instructions. I know for sure that the TC Electronic MIMIQ MUST be AFTER distortion and gain (which, ironically, is the main reason why I experimented with adding an effects loop to one of my CODE25 amps.). This all being said though: it's definitely NOT a transparent pedal i.e. dry signal <> 100% signal dry post pedal and effect definitely not simply dry delayed and there is definite tone coloration (however slight it may be). Putting it in an effects loop may (or may not???) improve on the phase and comb. filtering issues is all.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Really, the right way to solve it would be with a quality studio rackmount delay or a studio-quality software delay where the signal is pristine and you have control over the parameters, rather than a pedal. Pedals are affordable effects and you get what you pay for.