Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
- Thread starter kevinT
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fab.regnaut
New member
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
Gauge is 43 like the Custom serie , and it has a special insulation but I can't remember the name . :earl:
Gauge is 43 like the Custom serie , and it has a special insulation but I can't remember the name . :earl:
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I would bet it's just plain ol' 42 single build, whether poly or PE. Because a humbucker bobbin is relatively small compared to Strat, Tele, P90 and other pu's, 99.99% of mfr's use "single build" (means: 1 layer of insulation) 42 gauge on their humbuckers, so chances are pretty slim (so to speak) that Seymour uses 42 with "thinner" insulation because single-build is as thin as it gets.
Anyhow, getting 5k worth of 42 on a humbucker bobbin isn't too difficult, a breeze really, if the bobbin you're using is a shade on the tall side, so I suspect the Demon is 42.
I would bet it's just plain ol' 42 single build, whether poly or PE. Because a humbucker bobbin is relatively small compared to Strat, Tele, P90 and other pu's, 99.99% of mfr's use "single build" (means: 1 layer of insulation) 42 gauge on their humbuckers, so chances are pretty slim (so to speak) that Seymour uses 42 with "thinner" insulation because single-build is as thin as it gets.
Anyhow, getting 5k worth of 42 on a humbucker bobbin isn't too difficult, a breeze really, if the bobbin you're using is a shade on the tall side, so I suspect the Demon is 42.
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
Hi Zhang,
I'm leaning more towards 43 or maybe 42.5. I recently placed 6150 turns of 42 AWG PE (single build) which came out to be approxamately 4.89k Ohm dcr. There was barely enough room on the bobbin for more wire, it was pretty packed ...and i'm using a tensioner.
I guess the best way to tell is to look at the coils of the demon and see how full they are.
I recently wound a couple of coils with 43 AWG SPN to about 5.5k Ohm DCR for each coil (i can't remember the turn count at the moment) and there was a lot of room left on the bobbin.
Hi Zhang,
I'm leaning more towards 43 or maybe 42.5. I recently placed 6150 turns of 42 AWG PE (single build) which came out to be approxamately 4.89k Ohm dcr. There was barely enough room on the bobbin for more wire, it was pretty packed ...and i'm using a tensioner.
I guess the best way to tell is to look at the coils of the demon and see how full they are.
I recently wound a couple of coils with 43 AWG SPN to about 5.5k Ohm DCR for each coil (i can't remember the turn count at the moment) and there was a lot of room left on the bobbin.
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Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
You can definately hear a difference if you had pickups with each kind of wire and played each guitar right after the other. You will notice characteristics if they're pointed out to you. They are subtle differences ... but they're there.
You can definately hear a difference if you had pickups with each kind of wire and played each guitar right after the other. You will notice characteristics if they're pointed out to you. They are subtle differences ... but they're there.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
It's easy to hear different insulation if the thickness is different. Thicker insulattion means more space between the actual wires, and that changes the capacitance of the coil. In addition to that, the coil size itself also plays a role, a big one, in how a pickup sounds.
It's easy to hear different insulation if the thickness is different. Thicker insulattion means more space between the actual wires, and that changes the capacitance of the coil. In addition to that, the coil size itself also plays a role, a big one, in how a pickup sounds.
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
Thicker insulation will definitely make a tone difference, more so than the insulation material. As will coil size, again correct.
Thicker insulation will definitely make a tone difference, more so than the insulation material. As will coil size, again correct.
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I doubt Seymour bothers with 42.5 but you never know. As for 5k of 42 on a bobbin, like I said, it depends on the bobbin. Guitar Jones sells (or used to sell) a 49.2mm bobbin that was about 1-2mm taller than typical and I can get 5.5k worth of 42 PE on there pretty easily.
That might not totally settle it but it would be clue.
Oh yeah. You can get at least 7.5-8k worth of 43 on a standard bobbin easily. Just 5k worth and you could put it up to your ear and hear echoes or the ocean.
I doubt Seymour bothers with 42.5 but you never know. As for 5k of 42 on a bobbin, like I said, it depends on the bobbin. Guitar Jones sells (or used to sell) a 49.2mm bobbin that was about 1-2mm taller than typical and I can get 5.5k worth of 42 PE on there pretty easily.
kevin said:
That might not totally settle it but it would be clue.
kevin said:
Oh yeah. You can get at least 7.5-8k worth of 43 on a standard bobbin easily. Just 5k worth and you could put it up to your ear and hear echoes or the ocean.
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
You guys are speaking of the physical characteristics of the wire, which affects the physical characteristics of the pickup itself creating the specs and ultimately the individual tone of the pickup.......if that makes sense.
To add to that, I can hear the difference of the chemical makeup of the insulation and how it affects the current going through the coil creating a particular sonic trait.
For example, IMO, PE has an organic/earthy tone when played clean and a grittier sound with distortion than that of the other insulation types.
SPN insulation is more punchy and modern sounding.
Formvar insulation creates a brite and glassy characteristic.
This is what i hear and it may be different for other folks.
You guys are speaking of the physical characteristics of the wire, which affects the physical characteristics of the pickup itself creating the specs and ultimately the individual tone of the pickup.......if that makes sense.
To add to that, I can hear the difference of the chemical makeup of the insulation and how it affects the current going through the coil creating a particular sonic trait.
For example, IMO, PE has an organic/earthy tone when played clean and a grittier sound with distortion than that of the other insulation types.
SPN insulation is more punchy and modern sounding.
Formvar insulation creates a brite and glassy characteristic.
This is what i hear and it may be different for other folks.
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I have yet to try formvar but I need to grab some. It's been a long time since I've messed around with poly, but I really can't remember hearing a difference when I switched to PE. Maybe if I tried some poly again right now, I could hear it.
I have yet to try formvar but I need to grab some. It's been a long time since I've messed around with poly, but I really can't remember hearing a difference when I switched to PE. Maybe if I tried some poly again right now, I could hear it.
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I haven't tried the 49.2 mm GJ bobbins but that would make sense since, from what i heard, they are a bit deeper like a single coil pickup and able hold to more wire.
To me it's hard to describe some of these sonic characteristics... i guess that is why there are so many opinions on tone. e.g., one man's mellow will be another man's mud.
I haven't tried the 49.2 mm GJ bobbins but that would make sense since, from what i heard, they are a bit deeper like a single coil pickup and able hold to more wire.
To me it's hard to describe some of these sonic characteristics... i guess that is why there are so many opinions on tone. e.g., one man's mellow will be another man's mud.
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
They may not be now. I just got a shipment of 49.2's in and they are apparently from a different maker and standard height.
They may not be now. I just got a shipment of 49.2's in and they are apparently from a different maker and standard height.
fab.regnaut
New member
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I had the information about 43 gauge from a highly appreciated person from the Seymour's custom shop . :banana:
I had the information about 43 gauge from a highly appreciated person from the Seymour's custom shop . :banana:
hamerfan
Well-known member
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
And this is the funny thing: I opened my Screaming Deamon and its not fully packed. It even has a layer of copper shielding tape, which is connected with a wire to ground. But the sound says to me its 42 AWG. The bobbin is normal sized (i have a taller bobbin in a custom pup from David Barfus's Law Head pup).
Another winder (Leosounds) told me he got special Formvar wire which has a thinner insulation than the the single build PE.
And this is the funny thing: I opened my Screaming Deamon and its not fully packed. It even has a layer of copper shielding tape, which is connected with a wire to ground. But the sound says to me its 42 AWG. The bobbin is normal sized (i have a taller bobbin in a custom pup from David Barfus's Law Head pup).
Another winder (Leosounds) told me he got special Formvar wire which has a thinner insulation than the the single build PE.
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
It could still be 42 if the number of turns per layer is really high. Just seems odd to choose 43 for that application because it would sound about like a 7.5k pu with 42 gauge wire. The Custom Custom also has that copper tape layer, which is grounded and thus softens the top end a bit.
It could still be 42 if the number of turns per layer is really high. Just seems odd to choose 43 for that application because it would sound about like a 7.5k pu with 42 gauge wire. The Custom Custom also has that copper tape layer, which is grounded and thus softens the top end a bit.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I think it must be awg 43.
How else would it end up brighter than a PAF style coil? Overwiding a PAF style coil using same wire (awg 42) isn't going to make it brighter.
Taking the custom coil (awg 43) and underwinding it make it brighter than either, so that fits.
I think it must be awg 43.
How else would it end up brighter than a PAF style coil? Overwiding a PAF style coil using same wire (awg 42) isn't going to make it brighter.
Taking the custom coil (awg 43) and underwinding it make it brighter than either, so that fits.
dazzlindino
New member
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
so how many more electrons move with 42.5 compared to 42 givin that they are insulated the same?
so how many more electrons move with 42.5 compared to 42 givin that they are insulated the same?
Zhangliqun
Questionologist
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
Fewer electrons move with 42.5 because its narrower, so less room (less copper) for the electrons to move.
Fewer electrons move with 42.5 because its narrower, so less room (less copper) for the electrons to move.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Demon's wire gauge & insulation type?
I'm too lazy to do the math right now. But in general the thinner wire means more resistance per meter/foot, which translate into more resistance at the same number of winds.
As mentioned, coil volume is important, very important, because it picks up the shape of the magnet field, changing the coil volume is the same as shaping the magnetic field. The thinner wire means that with the same number of winds leads to a smaller coil.
So, overall, if you have similar resistance with thinner wire you know that you have both less winds and much less coil volume.
ETA: the capacitance is also higher with the same number of winds when using thinner wire (assuming same insulation thickness). That drives down the frequency of the resonance peak.
Overall it is fairly certain that the Demon uses tinner wire than the PAF's awg42.
I'm too lazy to do the math right now. But in general the thinner wire means more resistance per meter/foot, which translate into more resistance at the same number of winds.
As mentioned, coil volume is important, very important, because it picks up the shape of the magnet field, changing the coil volume is the same as shaping the magnetic field. The thinner wire means that with the same number of winds leads to a smaller coil.
So, overall, if you have similar resistance with thinner wire you know that you have both less winds and much less coil volume.
ETA: the capacitance is also higher with the same number of winds when using thinner wire (assuming same insulation thickness). That drives down the frequency of the resonance peak.
Overall it is fairly certain that the Demon uses tinner wire than the PAF's awg42.