Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

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Gearjoneser

Gear Ho
I'm curious to hear from those that can describe the difference in tone, using a humbucker with mismatched coils vs. evenly matched coils?

Can we limit this to first hand knowledge please? The parrots can go chirp on another thread! :blackeye: :laugh2:
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Hey Joe! How ya doin' buddy?

My take is that mismatched coils open up the mids and seem to mix in a little more "air" or "space" to the mids and give the humbucker a less compressed tone. Maybe a little clearer and a little more articulate too.

Lew
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Hey Lew, it's good to see you checking back in once in awhile. I'm about ready for a break from this place too.

The reason I asked is because I have 2 pickups that have mismatched coils....my new Custom/59 A5 hybrid in my strat, and Brobucker in my LP.
I can tell that they have something different going on, than my regular matched coil humbuckers. Maybe more 3D? More 'Bwaaang' when you slam a chord. It's hard to put my finger on, so I thought I'd ask. Also, I'm more used to judging new pickups in familiar guitars, and this time it's in a strat that's always been SSS till now.
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

I`m pretty much with lew on this one !
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

I've made a few both ways, and mismatched coils, depending on how wide the mismatch is, will give you a nearly ideal combination of P90 and humbucker tone. On the bridge pu, especially vintage to medium output, it's better to have the slug coil stronger because you get more grunt in the mids that way (and avoid the dread ice-pick) because there is more bass and midrange at that point on the string than over the screw coil.

At the same time, and almost paradoxically, the mismatch in the coils also allows in a fair amount of single coil air and chime, hence the ideal mix of P90/humbucker tone, at least to my ear.

The neck pu is better with the screw coil stronger because the harmonic node that the screw coil sits under is a little fatter and sweeter than that of the slug coil. And here again, the same "paradox" applies -- yes, you are emphasizing the lower freqs with a stronger screw coil in the neck, but by virtue of not being 100% humbucking, you are letting back in some high freq's that are normally cancelled out by even coils, so once again there's that ideal P90/bucker tone combo.
 
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Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Do you want to break it down into two categories?

1. Same wire gauge-different number of turns

2. Different wire gauges

I see them as pretty different. There are things I would say about one that don't apply to the other, and you've got one of each there, Joe!
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

I've made some of each and it works either way -- as long as you have significantly more turns in one coil than the other.
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Let's talk a little about how this all applies to the PG...as a point of reference.

And great to see you back Lew - you still in business?
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Greater harmonics, at least with mine, and a little more clarity and air as has been said.
 
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Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

That air is probably the "airiness" of a "Classic" paf refered to when discussing th "the" PAF sound - not that there really is one.
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

To my ears the you are getting a different peak from each coil resulting in a more complex tone. Pretty much what Zhang is talking about. I think the Brobucker I have is probably the best execution of it I have heard. The Hybrids have a "sound" thats cool but I think the coils may be a little too different. You can almost hear the two coils distinctly instead of a blend.
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Something else to consider, is that the pole pieces in the coil effect the capacitance/inductance/transconductance/etc. and that even with identical coils, mismatched pole pieces will make them different. An example is the Dimarzio MegaDrive with a big blade and hex screws. The std. paf type pickup comes with mismatched coils even if wound identically because of the different pole pieces.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much effect there is to that, but reports suggest that changing the pole pieces in one coil effects the tone.

Also, if you have identical coils, like a Full Shred and can hear each seperately, they sound different because of there location to the bridge, as stated above.

Your not really getting matched coils, even if they are identical because of location and possibly pole pieces.

How much different the coils should be, opens it up to infinite possiblities.
 
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Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

I deleted my little statement about coil location, because you've all covered it well. But here's a huge bloated rant from my experiences:
:wall:
With a normal humbucker, each coil produces the same tonal footprint, positional differences notwithstanding. The PAF is low enough in output that the one coil feeding the other doesn't add a lot of compression. But a high output bridge bucker will overload in the mids, basically because you're cramming 2lbs of mids into a 1lb bag. It's not distortion or overdrive, because you won't "clip" a humbucker coil with any standard wind. But the mids do get packed like a sausage. Again, at a PAF level, we love the fact that the notes "bloom" and that's due to the lower wind. So a mismatch with 42AWG PAF style coils will allow more complex mids, a little dual resonant peaking and combing, and generally more dynamics and depth. But in a Custom/59 situation, or even a Custom/JB, you're actually "solving a problem" in a way. You're allowing the pickup to reach ultra high output levels while reducing harsh artifacts and upper midrange multiplying, by reducing the tonal overlap between the coils.

High output buckers have all sorts of crazy artifacts. That's what we like about them. The JB is in your face because of it's sharp 4-6k peak. With that peak comes hyperactivated harmonics, and basically what I call "stray harmonics" that pop out like firecrackers sometimes, when you get just the right mix of notes while playing. It's sort of random in a way. Like that tightly packed sausage analogy, imagine it spitting out grease bullets while on the grill. The catalyst (or grill in this case) is an overdriven tube amp, I guess. :laugh2:

So while the mismatch can be good for some, it also can remove the distinctive character of a high output bucker. A JB/Custom hybrid may be just the right combination of each pickup to one player. But to another, it's lost the magic of both. It loses the "monster PAF" vibe of the Custom series, and loses the icepick harmonics of the JB. Sometimes owning one of each is better than owning a hybrid of the two.

This is EXACTLY why some find those high output Dimarzio dual resonance buckers bland and uninteresting. They're trying to deliver a "more professional, more balanced" sound. But within that there is a lot of homogenization. They never allow any one narrow frequency band to gain any traction. There's no wild "perfect storm" of mid bands that will give the pickup a strong identity. Instead, there's more subtle differences between pickup models like the Norton, Zone, Breed, etc. It's like a NASCAR race during a yellow flag. Every car is going, but no one is breaking away. Equal wound coils produce more definitive winners and losers when it comes to frequencies.

Back to the PAF range, (up to and including Brobucker levels IMO) There's less exponential mid spike anyway. So here, you've got the freedom with mismatched winds (both 42AWG) to custom tailor your midrange openness, airiness, etc. The mismatch here is almost like the difference between mono and stereo. There absolutely is a 3rd dimension added to the tone. Each pick attack isn't just a repeat of the same midrange thonk. They vary in tonality more. There's more tonal depth when you're playing notes over other notes that are still ringing. I feel there's better string separation too.
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

This is very interesting, especially your last post, Frank.
The $60,000 question still remains, though: Is the PG asymetrically wound? :)
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

This is very interesting, especially your last post, Frank.
The $60,000 question still remains, though: Is the PG asymetrically wound? :)

The PG is wired four conductor. If the parts, and the construction and winding method are the same for each coil, except for the possible difference in number of windings; couldn't you measure each coil on an ohmeter and determine if they are balanced?

I have the same question about a Seth Lover, the neck model in particular - is it asymetrically wound? Unfortunately since it's two conductor, my suggestion for the PG wouldn't help answer this for the Seth Lover. :sad:
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

According to my multimeter, all my PG and PG+ are wound to a different resistance on each coil, but then again, so is my APH, CC, C5, Air Zone, and CS Lil Pearly Gates. I know that the variances can be attributed to many factors, namely temeprature and production variances. what I want to know is if the PG is has unbalanced windings on purpose, or if its like the other Duncan PAF variants (save for the Antiquity) that are meant to have symetrical coils.
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Interesting points.

I have measured my PG-B and the coils are only a few hundred ohms different. That is so small, that the coils could have the same number of winds and vary because of wire imperfection.

Someone said their Fred measured 4.5K and 5.5K. The new Mo'joe is supposed to have even more difference in the coils.

Another idea, is to add the plasic spacer (air) to only 1 coil changing the magnetic balance.
 
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Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

This is an excellent subject, and great posts from all....


In my experience from playing/owing them...

To me a mismatched wind..lets the pup "breathe"..for lack of a better term. the mids almost pulsate...the "bloom" thing...they are more complex....the highs are more airy, and have some added sparkle...the bass gets a little tubbier...but also kind of more hollow....less round and more scooped. They are not as articulate or clear under really high gain.

Matched coils simply don't breathe as well...they are tighter...and more even sounding...the mids are smoother...and not as complex...they don't have that "pulsating" thing going on...The highs and bass are the same....tighter...not as complex...overall a matched wind is more polite sounding.

I do believe in general a mismatched wind responds to your fingers/touch *more*...not neccessarily *better*..but more...they can also hurt you.. really precise picking...speedy stuff..kinda falls apart....then they are not responsive enough...there is a certain amount of precision they just cannot handle as well as a matched wind.

This of course is all IMO, IME :)
 
Re: Difference in tone. Matched and mismatched coils?

Yeah, this has turned out to be a great thread, and should be moved to the Vault.

Especially interesting is that Zangliqun finally answered one of my questions about Hybrids.......saying that on a bridge pickup, it might be better to have slug coil be the hotter coil, and the screw coil be the weaker one. And visa versa on the neck, putting the hotter coil closer to the fretboard. It makes sense. The only drawback might be that you want the hotter coil to be the split single, if you plan on splitting them.

And, great analysis Frank! You tore this subject down to nuts and bolts, and that's what I wanted. We talk a lot about DC resistance and magnets, but rarely talk about wire, coils, and mismatching. It's important to know that mismatched doesn't automatically mean better, just a different sound.
 
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