different capacitors

[super rad stuff]

what are the differences between different types, and how do they effect the tone? not necissarilly cap value, i understand that to a point. rather, for example, what do the vitamin Qs sound like? i think i've read somewhere that they are like the bumble bee caps in NOS 50s les pauls, but don't quote me on that. i'm just curious to know so i understand why i'm spending the extra $0.30 for better quality caps(currently orange drops)

 

[Fikealox]

Re: different capacitors

Opinion is divided as to whether or not it's snake oil, but the story goes that ceramic caps are gritty, while paper & oil caps are creamier and smoother sounding. I think more of the difference between types comes down to tolerances. Ceramic caps can be +/-20%, but more expensive caps are more often +/- 5% or +/- 10%, so if you know what value you want, you're more likely to get what you want with a tighter tolerance cap. Even then, though, you could just buy a half dozen ceramics and likely get at least a few that are in spec.

I can see that actual vintage caps would have a special sound because of component drift, age, wear, etc (which typically lowers capacitance), but the same doesn't apply for new caps of more expensive construction.

Personally, I think the best bet is to buy up a number of caps of various values and types, and try them all out till you find one you like. I wouldn't pay more than a dollar or two for a cap, myself; but there are people that spend $50 on a single cap! If you reaaaally want true vintage caps, find an old radio and scrounge its parts.

 

[MultiCaster]

Re: different capacitors

Some say the ceramic caps are the most harsh in highs, followed by silver mica, then the orange drops and other polyester, polyethelene and polystyrene metalized film constructions. Next in line are the paper and foil in oil being the smoothest. And yes there are other designs and materials falling between all of these.

Now with all that said, the value, not makeup of the cap in a guitar circuit is most important and should be kept within a certain range of .015 to .047 according to how soon you want the highs to roll off as you turn down the tone control. The .047 will roll off quicker and the total roll off will be more or in other words, darker. Turned full up, they will be about identical in brightness with the same value pot.

Bass Guitars normally use a range of .050 to .080 or there about.

Keep in mind, there are dozens of caps in an amplifier, stomp boxes, etc. that will have a more profound impact on overall tone and the makeup of the ones in a guitar circuit is very negligible since it is passive.

The value is most effective. JMHO

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: different capacitors

thanks! that's exactly what i was looking for

 

[Nigel]

Re: different capacitors

Anderson uses .01 caps in his guitars.

 

[Sludgenutz]

Re: different capacitors

Anderson uses .01 caps in his guitars.

Off topic/derail un-intended: Very interstesting!:scratchch Is there a particular reason for this?

----------------------------

Super rad, as long as you have orange drops, I would guess most people would say that will get you there.

Orange drops, cheapo ceramic discs, as well as other caps in typical/modern guitar circuits are "dry" inside. They are stable over a lifetime, and will not "age" as other caps will. Other caps like vintage PIO (paper in oil), Vitamin Q, and electrolytic caps in amps and pedals have oily/wet electrolytes inside that can dry out over time by heat... and even sitting on the shelf for fifty years.

As long as you have O/J's, you are 97% percent where you are ever going to be, for under a buck.

 

[wanmei1]

Re: different capacitors

Off topic/derail un-intended: Very interstesting!:scratchch Is there a particular reason for this?

'Cause he just wanted the tone control to roll off the high frequencies and not the midrange as well.

A .01 begins to cut treble off high in the frequency band so the tone control only cuts frequencies above these and doesn't cut frequencies below this.

A .022 begins cutting off at a lower frequency than a .01 so the tone control cuts some of the upper mids as well as the treble.

A .047 cap. cuts off even lower down the frequency band and so the tone control affects midrange as well as all higher frequencies above the midrange.

 

[uOpt]

Re: different capacitors

The ceramics aren't the most harsh, even if you cann it "harsh". Compared to a musicap I'd say it's more "driven", a kind of hollow quality. I would voluntarily put this into many guitars. The musicap is softer, warm bass.

But the ceramics aren't the most on their side. The paper-in-oil sold on TGP are actually more "driven", or "harsh" than the ceramics.


PIO <- ceramic -------> musicap

Just because a capacitor looks big doesn't mean it sounds fluffy.

I have some clips of these caps in my thread about rwrp pickups in the clips subforum. But they are done with a Strat, I find it difficult to hear different capacitors with a Strat. A Les Paul with PAF class pickups is easier.

 

[5150ed]

Re: different capacitors

I have tried a lot of caps; NOS paper in oil, new production paper in oil, Film, milar and ceramic. From very cheap ceramic cap USD.5 to very highend Jensen USD100, what I really like is Vitamin Q. It give more harmonic, clarity, dynamic, warm in natural way.
But it need a lot of hours to break in, 1-200 hours of playing and more.

 

[wanmei1]

Re: different capacitors

I have tried a lot of caps; NOS paper in oil, new production paper in oil, Film, milar and ceramic. From very cheap ceramic cap USD.5 to very highend Jensen USD100, what I really like is Vitamin Q. It give more harmonic, clarity, dynamic, warm in natural way.
But it need a lot of hours to break in, 1-200 hours of playing and more.

People that suggest Sprague Orange drops just haven't experienced the magic that is within esoteric vintage caps.
It really is a revelation to hear a 1920's Kriptz Red Baron at around $1800 !
Breathtaking, full, smooth, detailed, poise, balance, authority, intimate and sublime but needs a break in period of around 7 to 8 years to really begin to open up.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: different capacitors

Install a mini switch or push/pull switch on your guitar that allows you to switch between two caps of the same value (like two .02 caps but one a Sprague Orange Drop and one a ceramic disc cap, for example) and see if you REALLY hear a difference.

I doubt you will. Not really.

I've done it - I've installed such a switch on my Strat. If there was any diff at all in tone, it was so small that I could never be certain I was hearing any difference at all.

You need to switch between the two caps in a split second to tell if you're really hearing a difference or not.

Lew

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: different capacitors

X_X ok i've gotten answers allover the board ranging from you can't hear any difference to broken in vintage caps are the absolute rage. i take it that it's not worth it for me to really worry about caps unless i want to spend years breaking in a cap to hear a difference, by which time i'll just think that my guitar is magic anyways:eyecrazy:

 

[uOpt]

Re: different capacitors

I posted clips of the Musicap and some ceramics, so you can hear for yourself.

The breaking in thing I am skeptical about, I gotta say. Breaking in a capacitor? Aging, I could buy for capacitors with semi-active chemicals like oil. But breaking in by playing? Mumble.

 

[wanmei1]

Re: different capacitors

X_X ok i've gotten answers allover the board ranging from you can't hear any difference to broken in vintage caps are the absolute rage. i take it that it's not worth it for me to really worry about caps unless i want to spend years breaking in a cap to hear a difference, by which time i'll just think that my guitar is magic anyways:eyecrazy:

I think it's worth changing to Orange drops as they're only a couple of bucks and you've got nothing to lose.
A lot of people like me change pots and caps at the same time so naturally enough we report hearing a difference in sound.

There may well be better caps than Orange drops but it really is the law of diminishing returns. Sprague orange drops will get you at least 90% of the way there regardless.

Lewguitar says there is no difference in sound quality in a Strat and certainly you can't argue with his test method, however it may be possible to discern a difference in a humbucker loaded git. I don't know if Lew sells Orange drops but if you do buy a couple then at least you can make up your own mind and you certainly won't degrade the sound quality.

In my opinion it's a very inexpensive change that may well yield a small improvement (or not) and certainly worth the risk of a few bucks.

( My previous post regarding Kriptz Red Baron caps was just me being sarcastic as usual.....my apologies.)

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: different capacitors

I think it's worth changing to Orange drops as they're only a couple of bucks and you've got nothing to lose.
A lot of people like me change pots and caps at the same time so naturally enough we report hearing a difference in sound.

There may well be better caps than Orange drops but it really is the law of diminishing returns. Sprague orange drops will get you at least 90% of the way there regardless.

Lewguitar says there is no difference in sound quality in a Strat and certainly you can't argue with his test method, however it may be possible to discern a difference in a humbucker loaded git. I don't know if Lew sells Orange drops but if you do buy a couple then at least you can make up your own mind and you certainly won't degrade the sound quality.

In my opinion it's a very inexpensive change that may well yield a small improvement (or not) and certainly worth the risk of a few bucks.

( My previous post regarding Kriptz Red Baron caps was just me being sarcastic as usual.....my apologies.)

alright, cool. actually last time i installed orange drops, i also put new pots and magnets so yea:eyecrazy:
but next time i order a batch of guitar electronics i'll have to get a bunch of different value caps then and see for muh'self.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: different capacitors

People that suggest Sprague Orange drops just haven't experienced the magic that is within esoteric vintage caps.
It really is a revelation to hear a 1920's Kriptz Red Baron at around $1800 !
Breathtaking, full, smooth, detailed, poise, balance, authority, intimate and sublime but needs a break in period of around 7 to 8 years to really begin to open up.

THERE IT IS!!!!!!!! This is why dead ppl's guitars are worth more!!!!!!!!
They killed themselves breaking the caps in and when they finally hear THE TONE there heart gives out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can now sleep at night!!!!
LMAO

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: different capacitors

THERE IT IS!!!!!!!! This is why dead ppl's guitars are worth more!!!!!!!!
They killed themselves breaking the caps in and when they finally hear THE TONE there heart gives out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can now sleep at night!!!!
LMAO

yea but when you year THE TONE of that dead person's guitar, wont it kill you too:eyecrazy::naughty::eyecrazy::naughty:

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: different capacitors

NO NO the tone only happens once........maybe twice.
The new guy has to install New circuitry and start over for the MAGIC to happen.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: different capacitors

Just so's you know: I use .02 Orange Drops in most of my guitars. I have .02 Hovlands in a couple - my '54 Tele being one. But it's mostly because I just want to be sure I'm using the best available - just in case there is a difference. But to be honest, I don't hear any difference!

I think it's all power of suggestion and wishful thinking.

For example, when I had that switch on my Strat that let me switch between two different .02 tone caps in real time, I'd play for friends and then make the switch to another cap and when they heard the "click" of the switch some would insist they heard a diff.

So I started just making a "click" noise with my pick but not really switching the switch. You guessed it: some (my brother Bruce for one) thought he heard a diff in tone when all I'd done is make a "click" noise with my pick and not changed anything! LOL!

I do think different caps (Mallory 150's vs. Sprague Orange Drops vs. Hovland) sound different in a guitar amp where the audio signal from the output of the cap stays in the circuit.

But in a guitar tone control the output of the cap goes to ground and doesn't stay in the audio signal. You don't hear it. It's returned to the planet Earth never to be heard from again.

Lew

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: different capacitors

Just so's you know: I use .02 Orange Drops in most of my guitars. I have .02 Hovlands in a couple - my '54 Tele being one. But it's mostly because I just want to be sure I'm using the best available - just in case there is a difference. But to be honest, I don't hear any difference!

I think it's all power of suggestion and wishful thinking.

For example, when I had that switch on my Strat that let me switch between two different .02 tone caps in real time, I'd play for friends and then make the switch to another cap and when they heard the "click" of the switch some would insist they heard a diff.

So I started just making a "click" noise with my pick but not really switching the switch. You guessed it: some (my brother Bruce for one) thought he heard a diff in tone whne all I'd done is make a "click" noise with my pick and not changed anything! LOL!

Lew

sugar pill effect?:naughty: that's pretty cool that you fooled ppl like that(seriously).
have you tried wiring up the switch with the same brand/type caps with different values?