Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

[Inflames626]

Hey guys,
What's the difference between the PATB Distortion and the stock version? I understand that the parallel axis pole pieces are supposed to alter the tone, but how?

Second, I've a Jackson DK2S with Distortion (took out the JB) and a Jackson KV3 with Jazz/Alt 8.

I tried the Alt 8 because I found the JB too loose in the bottom but the Distortion was too scratchy in the top, even compared to EMG 81s and Blackouts.

I really like the Alt 8 in terms of feel. The harmonics are very forgiving even if your hand placement isn't dead on the nodes. But it still has the scratchiness of the Distortion, only shifted down in the spectrum a bit (if you see Ola Englund's video below, you can really hear the scratchiness come out). I have a hard time dialing it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYDYiOIuC8

I honestly expected the Alt 8 to be warmer, but it's much closer to the Distortion than the JB in terms of feel.

Would the PATB Distortion solve this? I'm trying to find something fairly hot for harmonics but without any overwhelming spikes or notches in the frequency curve.

For passives, I'm pretty much down to trying just the Full Shred set in the long established, regular line. I think the Custom would be too scooped and bright on top. The Dimebucker seems to have a lot of presence, and I'd rather try a "real" (Wild Pickups) L500XL instead. The Invaders would probably be too saturated and bass heavy.

The Full Shreds sound consistent with a lot of body. I'm using Pod Farm 2.5, so I can get as much preamp gain as I need, which would compensate for a lower output.

My favorite pickups are the Blackouts, Thomsons, and EMG 81, in that order, but I'm still trying to find my ideal passive set so I can have more wiring options than an active set usually offers. I've had a lot of success with the Gibson 498t lately, too, for rhythm, which makes me think the Custom 5 would be a good choice. But I worry about the harmonics.

Thanks.

 

[hamerfan]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

All in all i guess you need an alnico pickup, maybe a very warm A5 or a scratchless A8. Is that right? For the second idea i cant really comment on this, because i never experienced scratchiness with any of my A8 pickups. Maybe you need a 300k volume pot or a turn with the tone pot.
In the realms of A5 pickups i'd say all duncans i know are clear and bright (maybe with the exception of the WHL) or swap in some RC A5 mags. BTW Bare Knuckle Pickups offer some warmer A5's.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

All in all i guess you need an alnico pickup, maybe a very warm A5 or a scratchless A8. Is that right? For the second idea i cant really comment on this, because i never experienced scratchiness with any of my A8 pickups. Maybe you need a 300k volume pot or a turn with the tone pot.
In the realms of A5 pickups i'd say all duncans i know are clear and bright (maybe with the exception of the WHL) or swap in some RC A5 mags. BTW Bare Knuckle Pickups offer some warmer A5's.

Thanks Hamerfan. Great name, btw. I own a Scarab XT that is very nice. Gibson Classic 57+/498t. Probably one of my best guitars for standard tuned rhythm.

You said A8s. The only model I know that Duncan makes is the Alt8. Have you tried the custom shop Crazy 8?

I dunno about warm A5s, since to me a warm A5 is what causes flabby bass. I consider myself a ceramic bridge player.

It's probably my guitars, which are import poplar/alder bolt on maple rosewood Jacksons. They're light, vanilla tonally, and they're easy to overwhelm with bass. The Duncans just seem to overwhelm them with the color of each pickup.

I used to be all EMG 81 all the time before Blackouts came out. I found Blackouts to be superior because they had more body but less attack than an 18 volt 81. The standard Blackout was great for body and chug and the Thomson was great if you wanted the mids shifted a tad higher for lower tunings (B and below). I still use EMGs but only if I want an EMG sound, usually in higher tunings. The 81 in 18 volts with an EXG is pretty brutal sounding.

EMGs sound the same in every guitar you put them in, for better or for worse. The thing with Duncans is I never know what I'm going to get as far as their passives.

The more I played with passives, the more I found the 81 to have its highs and lows rolled off. Despite all the hype about EMGs being bright and hot, they don't hold a candle to a Distortion. But that narrow frequency band is how EMGs manage to be consistent and sit in the mix so well.

I think I'll try a Full Shred set and, if this doesn't work, force myself to be happy with a JB with everything below 200 hz or so rolled off. Most of my pickups have a tight enough bottom to be fine rolling off below 100 hz, but the JB not so much. Or, I may just try the tried and true Super Distortion/PAF Pro setup. I like the more aggressive British sound of those mids than the JB, which I find kind of boxy.

People are raving about the Black Winter, but Ola Englund's videos find them to be even brighter than a Distortion. I've some hope for the 78 custom shop, Jason Becker, etc. I'm hoping that any low output or lack of saturation from the pickup can be made up for by boosting the amp.

 

[vinta9e]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

IMO the pod farm is the weakest link in your chain.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

vinta9e, if you're interested, here's a sample of some of the Pod Farm tone with the Gibson pups I was talking about. The tone's a bit wet--I was going for an 80s Dokken type sound.

I have Amplitube 3, Guitar Rig 4, Pod Farm 2.5, Revalver 3.5, and Waves GTR on this computer. I use all of them, but I find myself using PF the most.

https://soundcloud.com/devolve1980/hamer-tone

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

Something else I haven't thought of is I use metal picks, which probably has a lot to do with all the treble.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

I don't know...I've never found the Alt 8 to be "scratchy" sounding. It has a tight bass which you may be interpreting as "scratchy", but in the Ola video nearly all of the pups he tested sounded scratchy to me which makes me think it's more in his amp settings than anything else. Sounds like he's got lots of treble and presence dialed in.

My experience with the Alt 8 is that it is very full, rich, warm, smooth, tight, and powerful. It's got good solid treble, but definitely NOT scratchy, bright, or brittle sounding.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

GuitarDoc, that's true. But if he keeps his settings the same, the changes would be relative from one guitar to the next, at least amp wise. I don't approve of using a different guitar every time, though.

A lot of it I think is my guitar, which is pretty bright and lightweight. My Jackson DK2S with Distortion is a lot heavier than my KV3, so the Distortion in that guitar actually sounds beefier than the Alt 8 in the KV3.

But when I first put the Alt 8 it, it was just way too much. I had to back it off to 7/32" to get it under control. Most of my other guitars are half that.

I think I'll try the Super Distortion PAF Pro just to try another classic setup. If that doesn't work, I'll try switching out the Distortion with the Alt 8. Even simpler would be going with a traditional Fender type pick instead of metal, but I love how a metal pick sounds as far as attack, tapping, and pick slides.

I never get rid of pickups. Never know when you'll find a perfect guitar to use them in.

 

[Gunner4Life]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

Personally, I love the Alt. 8, and find the Distortion a little harsh in the highs. Only PATB I have experience with is the 3, and decided that it's my favorite pickup. I always went for the high output pickups, but recently went with a lower to moderate output pickup and high gain amp, and think the tone I get is much better, the PATB-3 sounds like a chugging beast in my DK2 through my 5150 mini, with smooth warm highs, tighter bottom than a JB but spongier than the Alt. 8, with lots of clarity and great harmonics.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

Thanks for the great responses everybody.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

I liked how the PATB 3 sounded in the clip relative to the other two.

 

[MkIII Renegade]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

I think the PATB-2 Distortion is fantastic. It replaced the stock moderate output J50BC in my Charvel 475 and towers over it, with huge crunch and lead sounds. Of my entire collection, it seems to gel the best with my MKIV's R2 channel, by overdriving it just the right amount for a nice, full-bodied sound without being brutal. And it can be as brutal as you like in high gain situations. It is scorching enough that I have it basically even with the bezel and no need to raise the height.

My experience with the standard PATB was very underwhelming, however. It was in a nice Hamer USA Chapparal, a very expensive guitar, but seemed to have no guts. The Distortion version could never be accused of that.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

Something else I haven't thought of is I use metal picks, which probably has a lot to do with all the treble.

Yeah, IME metal picks tend to make an unpleasant scratchy sound. I would try a tortex pick or something first to see if that gave you a better sound.

Also, Ola Englund's video of the black winter is so far from representative I wish people would just take it down. It made that pickup sound thin and tinny, when it makes a distortion sound IME (in 4 guitars currently, mind you) simultaneously boxy and thin comparatively. Horrible, horrible demo that sounds nothing like the actual pickup.

 

[vinta9e]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

Au contraire, my experience with the PATB-1 was a wonderful one. It lives in a custom made set neck carved top strat-shaped Skervesen, along with two quarterpounder singles. I cannot deny being impressed with the way that guitar delivers oomph with clarity. The original PATB's moderate output works alright here, just like good PAFs in a Les Paul.

I guess that the whole Parallel Axis line hasn't been fully appreciated by the guitar community. "Beekaz it lewks weeird u know".

On a side note, I wouldn't mind a Super Distortion / Paf Pro set in one guitar.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

Au contraire, my experience with the PATB-1 was a wonderful one. It lives in a custom made set neck carved top strat-shaped Skervesen, along with two quarterpounder singles. I cannot deny being impressed with the way that guitar delivers oomph with clarity. The original PATB's moderate output works alright here, just like good PAFs in a Les Paul.

I guess that the whole Parallel Axis line hasn't been fully appreciated by the guitar community. "Beekaz it lewks weeird u know".

On a side note, I wouldn't mind a Super Distortion / Paf Pro set in one guitar.

I think they look as cool as hell, especially in a pointy guitar like my King V that I'm trying to outfit.

Any direct Distortion to PATB 2 comparisons?

I dunno how I feel about Ola. He's everything right and wrong with the modern metal community. I feel like instead of trying to objectively evaluate gear he just plays with his usual tones through whoever sends him stuff, mostly as a way to sell gear and promote himself and his band. Everything ends up sounding kind of the same with him, but all the young players want the gear he has because of the cool led lights in the heads and the 3000+ gain stages.

Keith's comparison was much more helpful as far as the metal pickups.

This might help. I used to have an EMG 81/89 setup in this V guitar. John Carruthers, who helped develop EMGs with Rick Turner and teaches guitar maintenance at GIT, built it for me while I was a student there in 2000.

I normally don't like the EMG 85 because I'm a ceramic in the bridge kind of guy, but the 89 (which is similar to the 85) gave the guitar body that its light weight didn't supply--without the bottom being flabby. I wish now that I had simply replaced the 81 in the neck and kept the 89 in there. But I wanted to go an 89/81tw route and the 81tw was too deep for the shallow cavity, jacking up the string action.

What the hell, I thought. Go Jazz JB. Then the bottom ended up being flubby.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

SD's Facebook page told me the PATB Distortion actually has more output than the regular one.

I'm trying to square that with being in Stryper's guitars.

How do the pole pieces affect the tone relative to conventional ones and blades?

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Distortion PATB vs. Distortion and Alt. 8

SD's Facebook page told me the PATB Distortion actually has more output than the regular one.

I'm trying to square that with being in Stryper's guitars.

How do the pole pieces affect the tone relative to conventional ones and blades?

I have no idea but my PATB Distortion definitely gives a Stryper vibe which I find mildly amusing. I have tried a distortion, PATB Distortion and BW all in the same guitar. The BW is staying. The PATB Distortion is a weird animal. I'd say it has a more rounded tone than the other two, a bit more refined, and stronger harmonic prominence.