Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

[Despair]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

Correct.

they very much see a reactive one! It's one of the several reasons adoption of -fb is often employed around the output block, and also one of the key reasons you get so much tonal variations from speaker choice.

Err, I was using the general term, saying that unless the amp is powerful enough to tear the cone [and driven hard enough to do so], it doesn't care, as long as the impedance ["effective resistance" first few words of dictionary definition] is right. [And some amps even have output transformers sufficiently sturdy to permit deliberate gross mismatches for tonal reasons!]

It was in no way a reference to fixed resistive load vs reactive load attenuator marketing. Which aren't speakers, though they do demonstrate other aspects of both how amps aren't damaged by loads of varying wattage ratings and how it alters their tone.


Still, given how pervasive marketing is in guitar, good to point out a potential misunderstanding due to an oversimplification.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

At least at the end of this you now know the correct info and can happily use big cabs on small amps without stress as long as you're impedance matched.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

Err, I was using the general term, saying that unless the amp is powerful enough to tear the cone [and driven hard enough to do so], it doesn't care, as long as the impedance ["effective resistance" first few words of dictionary definition] is right. [And some amps even have

This is definitely a situation where being more specific is key given the nature of the op's post. The terminology and context are very distinct and fixed, so it's also very easy for things to take on a very different meaning if terminology is used figuratively. When the term resistive is used in this context it gives the impression you are talking about a linear static load, which a speaker is everything but - rising and dipping sometimes even dramatically with frequency.

output transformers sufficiently sturdy to permit deliberate gross mismatches for tonal reasons!]

Well sturdy certainly helps, but it's more of where the reflected z sits in the curves for the class of operation and chosen screen/plate voltages. A lot of times that information isn't readily available for the typical user though.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

At least at the end of this you now know the correct info and can happily use big cabs on small amps without stress as long as you're impedance matched.

Just what I was after. Another issue this particular tech has is the low wattage function (is it really attenuation?) on a lot of the cheaper amps nowadays. I'm no guru here but I think he sees issue with the ones that go into triode mode. I'm a little fuzzy on it all, but he's got some weird takes on certain things for sure.

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

Well, ya see, my "buddy" is actually my buddy. And a smart old guy. A good tech, even. Just not sound in the theoretical department, I suppose. We just swapped a Hammond OT into my old Skylark and he's a particularly cautious dude, I guess. I doubt he's gonna hear about this from me, though.

I'd have to take exception to this, given his advice to you. He may be a very nice guy, but smart, and a good tech, he isn't.

 

[dave74]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

Tell your buddy that wattage handling of a speaker is actually how much signal-induced heat the voice coil can handle before it literally cooks itself. It's not harder to push signal to a higher wattage speaker. It just means that it won't blow up as easily with more wattage.

Old 20-watt Celestion G12M speakers (the ORIGINAL Greenbacks) had a paper voicecoil former and it would literally spark and catch fire if you hit it with too many watts.

That should be part of the stage-show! lol

 

[AlexR]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

Just what I was after. Another issue this particular tech has is the low wattage function (is it really attenuation?) on a lot of the cheaper amps nowadays. I'm no guru here but I think he sees issue with the ones that go into triode mode. I'm a little fuzzy on it all, but he's got some weird takes on certain things for sure.

When you go into a lower power mode it simply means your amp is putting out less energy......hence it will be quieter. I think the triode vs pentode gives a slightly different feel........and it breaks up earlier.
Nothing about an amp is remotely the same tonally at full volume vs quiet. The key one is the amount of air moving....which NO attenuation method can compensate for. The tri/pent method is just cheap way of making the amp saturate quicker for bedroom/home use.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Do big speakers hurt little output transformers?

When you go into a lower power mode it simply means your amp is putting out less energy......hence it will be quieter. I think the triode vs pentode gives a slightly different feel........and it breaks up earlier.
Nothing about an amp is remotely the same tonally at full volume vs quiet. The key one is the amount of air moving....which NO attenuation method can compensate for. The tri/pent method is just cheap way of making the amp saturate quicker for bedroom/home use.

Well it depends, this is contextual too... Triodes are actually more linear than pentodes, and are somewhat less picky about load variation because they also tend to have lower output z comparatively, so its not uncommon in Hi-Fi circles to see high powered triode power amplifiers driven into ab2. Two big reasons for part of the slightly different sound also comes from the fact that the screen grid is no longer isolating the plate from the control grid so Miller is more significant and harmonic generation is skewed in comparison to a pentode.

In a guitar amp it's typically a pseudo triode mode, and the total output is lowered significantly , but it also is used to change the sound and feel of the poweramp as well. Triode mode will tend to sound warmer, more compressed and softer, so it's very much done for tonal reasons and flexibility too. It shouldn't really be thought of as a poor mans attenuator, more than just another tool in the shed.

Just what I was after. Another issue this particular tech has is the low wattage function (is it really attenuation?) on a lot of the cheaper amps nowadays. I'm no guru here but I think he sees issue with the ones that go into triode mode. I'm a little fuzzy on it all, but he's got some weird takes on certain things for sure.

It depends on what your friends disdain towards it is, but one of the biggest problems you run into with it in guitar amps is that more times than not, the switch isn't rated high enough for the DC voltages present, so you sometimes get arcing if you are switching when the amp is powered on. It can also make the power section slightly noisier and have a tendency towards ghosting if it's not designed well due to the absence of the screen grid.