Do different brand of tubes soud different?

[jackson111]

Ok I got a blackstar HT stage 60, I had to get it re-tubed 3 months ago, and I had problems because it was re-tubed incorrectly, finally got it all straightened out and I have checked my bias, which Blackstar recommends to be set at 50mv. I set it there and it sounded great clean but the distortion sounded bassy, and fuzzy, so I rebiased and set it to about 60mv, sounded better but muddy and it had lost a lot of its articulation, so re-biased it again at about 55mv sounded better again but it has a grainy sound.

I know the amp came with TAD EL34 power tubes, when I got it re-tubed they installed Mesa Boogie EL34 power tubes. can that make a different in tone? also does anyone have any recommendations for tube brands that will work well this amp? I have heard Groove Tubes are good tubes, but from what I understand Mesa Boogie tubes are actually made by Groove Tubes, so wouldn't they be the same?

 

[erksin]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Oh most definitely - all tubes are not created equally.

 

[marvar]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Ok I got a blackstar HT stage 60, I had to get it re-tubed 3 months ago, and I had problems because it was re-tubed incorrectly, finally got it all straightened out and I have checked my bias, which Blackstar recommends to be set at 50mv. I set it there and it sounded great clean but the distortion sounded bassy, and fuzzy, so I rebiased and set it to about 60mv, sounded better but muddy and it had lost a lot of its articulation, so re-biased it again at about 55mv sounded better again but it has a grainy sound.

I know the amp came with TAD EL34 power tubes, when I got it re-tubed they installed Mesa Boogie EL34 power tubes. can that make a different in tone? also does anyone have any recommendations for tube brands that will work well this amp? I have heard Groove Tubes are good tubes, but from what I understand Mesa Boogie tubes are actually made by Groove Tubes, so wouldn't they be the same?

Groove Tubes, which is owned by Fender, only makes a few certain tubes, most of the rest of their stuff is rebranded from tube manufacturers. Of which there are only like a handfull worldwide.
The same for TAD, Mesa Boogie, et al, none of these people make tubes.
IMO you should use the amp mfg. bias settings only as a guidline- there are proper ways to re-bias an amp, using measured voltages, current draw, and a mathamatical formula, for best operation.

 

[jackson111]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

I agree with the re-bias comment you made. I found a formula in which I needed to find my plate voltage which is 512vdc. the formula is to divide 25 by the plate voltage and that equals the bias voltage per tube, which I have to double because when you check the bias voltage on the Ht stage 60 your actually bias the power tubes together, so I took 25/512 = 0.04883 which is 48.8mv, but then the formula calls for you to multiply that number by .50 for a cold amp, .60for average bias, or by .70 for a hot bias. after doing the 60% for average I got 29mv, so that is 29*2=58 that's why I started around 60mv, but the amp sounded bad, that's, why I tried other bias voltages to attempt to get it sounding like it used to. maybe its just the tubes. oh well I guess I will get used to the tone and I will have to figure out if I need to push the knob up or back to get the gain sound im looking for. I really like beefy thick tone with a good overdriven sound( so I guess not really true distorted tone) that is thick and chunky on chords, and still has enough brightness to sing during solos, and that's exactly what I had with the TAD tubes, but they only lasted about a year, which some people tell me is normal for tubes, and other tell me they re-tube their amp about every 5 years. so I guess im not sure which is correct my last amp I had for 4 years and never re-tubed it.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Sorry, but Groove Tubes MAKES NO TUBE, they just define a tolerance range for each technical specification and, test and clasify tubes that the very few manufactures do, rejecting those that doesn't fit to their tolerances.
Groove Tubes, among other re-labelers as TAD, Wattford Valves, etc. can order some special batches to manufacturers. This is the clear case of any tube that you see ending with STR (what means something like Specific Technical Request, or alike).
And all those special orders are made in China, exclusively.
Groove Tubes (before Fender) invested in tooling in a Chinesse factory, to be able to get tubes to their specifications, as far as I know.

Answering to the OP. Yes, certainly for each tube type (EL84, EL34, 6V6GT, 6L6, 12AX7, 5751, ...), the sound changes from Maker/Model to Maker/Model.
Two tubes of same maker of same type (12AX7) but different models (Sovtek 12AX7, Svetlana 12AX7, EH 12AX7, Mullard 12AX7, Genelec 12AX7...) sound definitively different.

For guitar amps, there currently very few tube factories:

Red Sensor, in Russia, running several brands, including: Sovtek, Svetlana (not the real Svetlana!), Genelec-Gold Lion, Tung Sol, Mullard, Electro-Harmonix, ...)
JJ Electronics, running just JJ brand
Svetlana (Sant Petersburg): just running the series Winged C and Winged S. Red Sensor bought the trade mark for their use in USA and Canada so, the real svetlana HAS to sell its stuff like Winged C and Winged S logos. Ironic.
China (I don't remember if Sino or Shughuang. One of them closed, the other is still alive). Those make the same tube and relabel them for everybody (TAD, Wattford, Grove Tubes, ...).

NO AMP MAKER MAKES TUBES !.
So, a Mesa-Boogie, Marshall, Engl, Koch or any other amp-branded tube is just a relabeled tube, mostly JJs or Sovteks or Chinese ones.

Appart from those current production tubes, there is still some scary expensive NOS (New Old Stock, or tubes made during 60-70s that were sleeping on bins). But be aware, they are also selling tubes already used and found in old electronics equipment.

You can find probably more authorized info in Internet but, if you don't mind, I've got some articles related to this matter:
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-more-tubes-part-1.html
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-tubes-part-2.html
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-more-tubes-part-3.html
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-more-tubes-part-4.html

and something around biasing
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-retubing-marshall-1923c-85th_24.html

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Different brands will have different specs. Maybe it'll be a slightly different metal for the screen, cathode, ect, or it might be dimensional differences of those components. So, while there are only 3 or 4 factories in the world that make vacuum tubes, they have different models, so to speak. I look at it this way, saying that all tubes are the same is like saying Goodyear only makes one kind of tire.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Sorry, but Groove Tubes MAKES NO TUBE, they just define a tolerance range for each technical specification and, test and clasify tubes that the very few manufactures do, rejecting those that doesn't fit to their tolerances.
Groove Tubes, among other re-labelers as TAD, Wattford Valves, etc. can order some special batches to manufacturers. This is the clear case of any tube that you see ending with STR (what means something like Specific Technical Request, or alike).
And all those special orders are made in China, exclusively.
Groove Tubes (before Fender) invested in tooling in a Chinesse factory, to be able to get tubes to their specifications, as far as I know.

Answering to the OP. Yes, certainly for each tube type (EL84, EL34, 6V6GT, 6L6, 12AX7, 5751, ...), the sound changes from Maker/Model to Maker/Model.
Two tubes of same maker of same type (12AX7) but different models (Sovtek 12AX7, Svetlana 12AX7, EH 12AX7, Mullard 12AX7, Genelec 12AX7...) sound definitively different.

For guitar amps, there currently very few tube factories:

Red Sensor, in Russia, running several brands, including: Sovtek, Svetlana (not the real Svetlana!), Genelec-Gold Lion, Tung Sol, Mullard, Electro-Harmonix, ...)
JJ Electronics, running just JJ brand
Svetlana (Sant Petersburg): just running the series Winged C and Winged S. Red Sensor bought the trade mark for their use in USA and Canada so, the real svetlana HAS to sell its stuff like Winged C and Winged S logos. Ironic.
China (I don't remember if Sino or Shughuang. One of them closed, the other is still alive). Those make the same tube and relabel them for everybody (TAD, Wattford, Grove Tubes, ...).

NO AMP MAKER MAKES TUBES !.
So, a Mesa-Boogie, Marshall, Engl, Koch or any other amp-branded tube is just a relabeled tube, mostly JJs or Sovteks or Chinese ones.

Appart from those current production tubes, there is still some scary expensive NOS (New Old Stock, or tubes made during 60-70s that were sleeping on bins). But be aware, they are also selling tubes already used and found in old electronics equipment.

You can find probably more authorized info in Internet but, if you don't mind, I've got some articles related to this matter:
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-more-tubes-part-1.html
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-tubes-part-2.html
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-more-tubes-part-3.html
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-tubes-tubes-and-more-tubes-part-4.html

and something around biasing
http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/amps-retubing-marshall-1923c-85th_24.html

New Sensor.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

New Sensor.

Darn right!
Thanks!
Things of the age...:smack:

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Darn right!
Thanks!
Things of the age...:smack:

No worries, man. I do the same thing once in awhile too.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Not only the brand, but a different batch from the same brand will make a difference in tone. Because of this variance, some manufacturers and rebranders even offer hot, medium and cold versions of the same tube.

BTW TAD is good stuff. They are a rebrander, but they have a 'special' relationship with the original manufacturers and get particular specs met and they do a heck of a lot of testing to weed out crap tubes. For example, I have an original Mullard 10M 12AX7 from the early 1970s and out of 15 various recent brands from Ruby, JJ, Tungsol, Groove Tubes, EH, etc., TAD is the only one that sounded and behaved exactly like my original Mullard 10M.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

The important thing to understand is that brand does not often equal manufacturer. Most manufacturers do have their own brands, however, what they mainly do is make tubes to be sold as various other brands. Different models of tubes sound different. Different brands of tubes only sound different if they are also different models. Many different brands of tubes are actually the same model. For instance, many, many, many brands of tubes are just the same Sovtek-made model, with different paint on the glass and in different boxes. Also worth noting is that the same maker can make several different models of the same tube type. Sovtek make a few types of 12AX7's, for instance. They range from pretty okay to total dog****. These different models are made to spec for different tube brands around the world. Some of these companies order the tubes at a different level of quality than the run-of-the-mill Sovtek 12AX7's (which are the ones that qualify as total dog****). So, there can be the same crap Sovtek 12AX7WA model sold under various brands, and there can also be higher quality models made in the same place, sold under other brands. It's quite a pain in the ass to keep track of it all.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

And also keep in mind, we as guitar players are not the only users of these tubes. People using them in hi fi audio have very different needs than guitar players, so what may be a crap tube to us, could be the cats meow to them.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

Not only the brand, but a different batch from the same brand will make a difference in tone. Because of this variance, some manufacturers and rebranders even offer hot, medium and cold versions of the same tube.

BTW TAD is good stuff. They are a rebrander, but they have a 'special' relationship with the original manufacturers and get particular specs met and they do a heck of a lot of testing to weed out crap tubes. For example, I have an original Mullard 10M 12AX7 from the early 1970s and out of 15 various recent brands from Ruby, JJ, Tungsol, Groove Tubes, EH, etc., TAD is the only one that sounded and behaved exactly like my original Mullard 10M.

I bet you talk about TAD 7025-S Highgrade.
I actually prefer Mullard RI, independently on how close to original is.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

And to make it even more funny, same tube of same batch sounds really differnt in every different amp!!!.
By example, I usually don't like JJ ECC83S very much (a tad harsh) but, those are the only tubes that really work in my Marshall (tone-wise positions).
The Sovtek EL84 sounded plain in most of amps but, in a Blues Junior made magic.
You never know how a tube will react with a certain amp, until you don't test it.

 

[Dennis Hrapeck]

Re: Do different brand of tubes soud different?

I've found that most tube suppliers use sovteks and electroharmonix. The sovteks usually are brighter and the eh's are usually darker and break up faster.