Do I really need a trembucker?

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

No you cant because you cannot isolate all changes. There is more different between a tb and a sh than just the spacing. I will give you a little hint as to why it isnt so important. The magnet width on a TB is the same as an SH... the pole pieces are not magnetic now put 2 and 2 together. The pole pieces can somewhat direct the eddy currents of the magnetic field but overall the shape is determined by the bar mag itself. The magenetic field sure doesnt come straight out from the poles then disappear off the poles

Actually, you functionally can. Your points are not solid because they are based in an idea that the tolerances do not dwarf the differences. (Which they do.) Meaning that there is a greater individual difference possible between any two pickups than the trembucker/ standard spacing.

Also, with a Schaller 3d bridge, you can alter nothing but string spacing. So your argument is just ridiculous as it can be set up quite easily. Set up a schaller 3 d to line up with a standard spaced pickup, than adjust the spacing to a trembucker spacing. You will hear a difference.


And the simple fact is, that some of us have experienced the loss of the e strings with standard spaced buckers which is a MUCH larger change than the theoretical one(theoretical because it is smaller than the stated tolerances) between a trembucker and standard spacing.

The magnetic fields do not just dissapear, but aren't they subject to the inverse square law, which you are ignoring.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Actually, you functionally can. Your points are not solid because they are based in an idea that the tolerances do not dwarf the differences. (Which they do.) Meaning that there is a greater individual difference possible between any two pickups than the trembucker/ standard spacing.

Also, with a Schaller 3d bridge, you can alter nothing but string spacing. So your argument is just ridiculous as it can be set up quite easily. Set up a schaller 3 d to line up with a standard spaced pickup, than adjust the spacing to a trembucker spacing. You will hear a difference.


And the simple fact is, that some of us have experienced the loss of the e strings with standard spaced buckers which is a MUCH larger change than the theoretical one(theoretical because it is smaller than the stated tolerances) between a trembucker and standard spacing.

The magnetic fields do not just dissapear, but aren't they subject to the inverse square law, which you are ignoring.

Have you actually done the test with schaller? Ive done it with kahlers and found unless you go way out it doesnt make that much difference. Maybe you have sensitive e strings... for me... it doesnt matter. But you cannot put something that is subjective as gospel.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Have you actually done the test with schaller? Ive done it with kahlers and found unless you go way out it doesnt make that much difference. Maybe you have sensitive e strings... for me... it doesnt matter. But you cannot put something that is subjective as gospel.

It isn't subjective. It is linear distance from the magnet, which is then subject to the inverse square law to the strength of the magnetic field.

Also, there were factual errors in your previous post. Firstly, your slugs and screws are the magnets which pass through the coil producing sound. They are, owing to their contact with the magnetic bar magnets, and without them, the pickup makes no sound. The polepieces ARE magnetic, now put 2 and 2 together please. (Demonstration of this is simple, replace your slugs & screws with non-magnetic material, such as hardware store stainless steel) Or better yet, see if string clippings stick to the screws.

Easy demonstration of this, remove the screws from a humbucker and you essentially get a noiseless single coil, as you now have a dummy coil and a slug coil.

Easier demonstration of this, adjust your pickup screws to effect string to string balance.


But basically your point is factually wrong because the slugs and screws are magnetic and in essence, the magnets which produce the electrical signal. It is the wire wrapped around magnets which makes guitar pickups work. Those magnets are your screws and polepieces even if they are not permanent magnets like the bar magnet underneath them which functionally powers them.

And yes, I have done it with the schaller, and the difference is bigger than the difference between a humbucker and trembucker which may or may not exist pending the precise examples used.

 

[HALENisking]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I think this is getting a tad overcomplicated :dunno:
In the interest of helping the original poster in a staightforward manner: If you care enough to then try the G spaced bucker in the guitar! If not then don't and buy a trembucker. Many different people have had success both ways.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Firstly, your slugs and screws are the magnets which pass through the coil producing sound.

Im done with you... you are so flat wrong. The slugs and screws are NOT magnetic... un screw a screw from your pup and see if it sticks to your fridge. Theres no point in arguing when you have even the basic fundamentals so wrong.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I think this is getting a tad overcomplicated :dunno:
In the interest of helping the original poster in a staightforward manner: If you care enough to then try the G spaced bucker in the guitar! If not then don't and buy a trembucker. Many different people have had success both ways.

I agree with this... in fact my original advice to the op before g64 wanted to fight was

The way ive always handled it is this... which ever i find for a good price... I buy

 

[dominus]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I had a volume drop on this guitar:

Yes, that's an Invader.

 

[dominus]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Im done with you... you are so flat wrong. The slugs and screws are NOT magnetic... un screw a screw from your pup and see if it sticks to your fridge. Theres no point in arguing when you have even the basic fundamentals so wrong.

Yes they are *magnetic*.

They're not *magnetized*.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Yes they are *magnetic*.

They're not *magnetized*.

Good point there might be a semantics issue going on... to me if you say something is magnetic it means "having the properties of a magnet" not "capable of being magnetized or attracted by a magnet" but looking in the dictionary it seems both definitions are correct. Either way the argument has reached a mexican stand off and i'm no longer interested in it. The OP is free to try whichever type he wishes but he should just be aware that for all the guys that scream up and down that its a necessity there are just as many that think its only for looks. He will find no consensus on the issue.

 

[dominus]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

The OP is free to try whichever type he wishes but he should just be aware that for all the guys that scream up and down that its a necessity there are just as many that think its only for looks. He will find no consensus on the issue.

For the people that say they've never had it happen to them, can they positively state that it will never happen for anyone?

As opposed to the people that have experienced the issue, could others argue that they imagined it?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

For the people that say they've never had it happen to them, can they positively state that it will never happen for anyone?

As opposed to the people that have experienced the issue, could others argue that they imagined it?

Anything could be argued particularly when the evidence to the contrary is based solely on personal empirical evidence.

Ive had invaders in guitars with the same spacing as you show and havent had a problem. But my experience doesnt invalidate yours and vice versa hence my suggestion to the OP since this has turned into a circular argument.

 

[punx77]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I have an angled sh-5 in my strat and the poles are way more off than the one on the pic dominus posted and I can't say I notice any drop in volume at all or maybe it's just too little to even be bothered. I don't know.
I think I'm going to go with the SH instead of the TB. I just don't like the idea of the TB...like some kind of freak pickup. The argument that won ME over was the fact that guitarists have been playing with normal humbuckers on floyd bridges for ages and never were bothered by this, so why should I?

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Im done with you... you are so flat wrong. The slugs and screws are NOT magnetic... un screw a screw from your pup and see if it sticks to your fridge. Theres no point in arguing when you have even the basic fundamentals so wrong.

clearly your fundamentals are drastically wrong, as the slugs and studs are magnets. Very few humbuckers use permanent magnets inside the coils. SLUG, EL Diablo (A2 rail version), Silverhawk, Qtuner v1 and a few others. Most use temporary magnets in the form of screws and slugs connected to a bar magnet which is magnetizing the poles and screws.. These pickups need the slugs and screws passing through the coil to function. They are much more integral to the design than you seem to think. Without them there is no pickup.

I said it is magnetic because it is attracted to the bar magnet. (Which is a permanent magnet.) Since it is in contact with the bar magnet, it is the magnet powering the pickup. Allmost all pickups are wire wrapped around magnets. While your screws and slugs are in contact with the bar magnet, they ARE functioning as the magnets. (I believe they would be referred to as temporary magnets, since their magnetism is contingent on being in contact with the bar magnet) They don't just shape the eddy currents as you incorrectly stated. You are effecting the distance from the (temporary) magnets which pass through the coil.

A non-magnetic material is one which will not be attracted to a magnet. Hardware store stainless steel is an example of this. (I have read there are magnetic stainless steels, but I can't think of any I have personally seen.)Frankly, you made several factual errors. And they relate to how a pickup works.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Anything could be argued particularly when the evidence to the contrary is based solely on personal empirical evidence.

But it isn't.

The inverse square law dictates the strength of the magnetic field will weaken as distance from the magnet increases. Your magnetized screw is the magnet, thus, increasing the distance from the magnet will decrease the intensity. There will be a difference based on physics.

So it is based on empirical evidence based on physics.

 

[Gooch]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I have a Tonepros Tune-o-matic on my Mockingbird. I cannot tell if I need a TB or SH, because when I eyeball it, it seems both work fine. In the end, I plan to put in an SH.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I have an angled sh-5 in my strat and the poles are way more off than the one on the pic dominus posted and I can't say I notice any drop in volume at all or maybe it's just too little to even be bothered. I don't know.
I think I'm going to go with the SH instead of the TB. I just don't like the idea of the TB...like some kind of freak pickup. The argument that won ME over was the fact that guitarists have been playing with normal humbuckers on floyd bridges for ages and never were bothered by this, so why should I?

Actually, they were bothered by this. Hence, the angled pickup, and the trembucker were both seen as solutions to the problem. Some times it works well enough. Sometimes it doesn't YMWV.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

I have a Tonepros Tune-o-matic on my Mockingbird. I cannot tell if I need a TB or SH, because when I eyeball it, it seems both work fine. In the end, I plan to put in an SH.

A lot of those work with both. Problems come in with wider spacings. I know from experience that my guitar with a 57mm string spread at the bridge was awful with a standard spacing. (57mm is kind of huge and was on a late 80s bridge) I have had problems with slightly narrower spacings such as a Floyd.

 

[punx77]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Actually, they were bothered by this. Hence, the angled pickup, and the trembucker were both seen as solutions to the problem. Some times it works well enough. Sometimes it doesn't YMWV.

Well, that does make sense. But what do you mean by "sometimes it doesn't". Why wouldn't a trembucker work when they are meant to be used for trem bridges?

 

[Gooch]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

A lot of those work with both. Problems come in with wider spacings. I know from experience that my guitar with a 57mm string spread at the bridge was awful with a standard spacing. (57mm is kind of huge and was on a late 80s bridge) I have had problems with slightly narrower spacings such as a Floyd.

So I should be fine with either one...Good. Thx!

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Do I really need a trembucker?

Well, that does make sense. But what do you mean by "sometimes it doesn't". Why wouldn't a trembucker work when they are meant to be used for trem bridges?

Sorry if I was unclear.

I meant standard spacing works well enough sometimes with F spaced bridges. Sometimes it doesn't. It is something that you can only determine by trying it. You can get a rough idea by measuring the string spread, but exact position of the bridge pickup will also effect this.
If your e strings drop out with a standard spaced pickup, then that is what I mean by sometimes it doesn't. I can't tell you what well enough is for you, but, if your string spacing at the bridge, assuming about average pickup placement, were say 2 1/16 it probably will work fine. If your spacing is 2 3/16 at the bridge, that is a dicier proposition. For me, roughly 2 1/8 string spread is about where I start hearing a change. If you get to 2 1/4inch string spread, I can say I find it painfully obvious. (BTW, these are all common enough bridge sizes, though 2 1/4 is the rarest of these IME.)