Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out?

[DreX]

Does anyone know if there is a standard practice with regard to charge levels of A2 bars and A5 bars? For example, does Seymour Duncan Co. (or DiMarzio, etc.) fully gauss their magnets, or does any given pickup design incorporate a target gauss as part of it's specification? I know the Antiquities target a lower gauss as part of their "aging", but what about other pickups that are not intended to sound "aged"?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I think it's a safe bet to assume that unless a major manufacturer is telling you that they do calibrate to a target gauss (less than "full") that they are charging to full or overcharging, which still allows a material like Alnico to settle back down to "full" over a short period of time.

Now let's pretend a certain batch of Alnico has a variance of as much as 15%. It's possible that even if a company doesn't manipulate that through degaussing, they may sort it afterward with a pass/fail range. This is rare but possible. And as you can imagine, different magnet suppliers, even when something is supposed to be "exactly the same" still manage to make things a little bit different than one another.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Thanks for the reply! Does A2 settle at a lower gauss than A5 over some period of time, and do you know how long it takes to settle? I have a charging setup with a couple neodymiums, an A5 and and A2 bar and I'm able to get them both at or very near 35 gauss near the center of either bar. The A3 bar was the only one I couldn't get to charge anywhere close to 35... more like 25 gauss.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

DreX, get a GravitasTechnology Spin Doctor.

Best digital Gaussmeter for the price.

Or, you can build your own. There are several projects you can find on the Net.

HTH,

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

That one looks pretty good, I like that it's digital for the precision, but it's nice how the analogue version provides instant feedback. I've seen the same gauss meter in some Seymour Duncan promo photos, so... if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. Although there appears to be no way to calibrate it if it gets messed up somehow, as the casing is glue shut.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I've seen the same gauss meter in some Seymour Duncan promo photos, so... if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. Although there appears to be no way to calibrate it if it gets messed up somehow, as the casing is glue shut.

Well... actually, it is not good enough for the task ahead.

The primary use for that old, analog tool is to check if a magnet was put in correctly, and if the mag was an A2 or an A5. It's a production tool, not a measuring one.

Only a digital one, with the right mT (Micro Tesla scale aka Gauss scale. 1 Tesla = 1,000 Gauss) scale can give you the readings you need. Have in mind that several magnets read quite close to each other, so it'll be quite difficult to tell'em apart, even with the right tool. Only with a "zapper", you can tell the difference, by fully-chargin'em and measuring'em the day after. This is what's done when controlling the accuracy of a mag's batch.

HTH,

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

It's said that A2 produces a warner, softer tone, compared to A5, which produces a sharper, scooped, tighter tone, but I can't find any technical explanation as to how that happens, only that it's happens.

Supposedly, the permeability of the core material in the coil has the greatest impact on inductance, and the resonant peak in turn. In a Strat pickup, the magnet is the core, so it's easy to explain a change in inductance with the change from A2 to A5 pole pieces. The thing is, when you swap the A2 bar for an A5 bar on a PAF, the steel pole piece cores remain unchanged, and so the inductance figure should therefore remain the same, right? Or does the external A2 to A5 still manage to modify the inductance value(s) somehow?

If it's the case that the inductance / resonant peak doesn't move an inch when switching from A2 to an A5 bar, could it be that the the EQ is not really changing, but rather than the relationship between the string and the coil changes in such as way that created the impression of "tighter lows", "pointier highs", to our ears, in much the same way that people claim to get added mids when you raise a pickup closer to the string, even though the inductance and even the magnetic strength remain the same?

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Well... actually, it is not good enough for the task ahead.

The primary use for that old, analog tool is to check if a magnet was put in correctly, and if the mag was an A2 or an A5. It's a production tool, not a measuring one.

Only a digital one, with the right mT (Micro Tesla scale aka Gauss scale. 1 Tesla = 1,000 Gauss) scale can give you the readings you need. Have in mind that several magnets read quite close to each other, so it'll be quite difficult to tell'em apart, even with the right tool. Only with a "zapper", you can tell the difference, by fully-chargin'em and measuring'em the day after. This is what's done when controlling the accuracy of a mag's batch.

HTH,

With the tool I have I can tell the strength to within an accuracy of about 2 guass. The only thing I'm unsure of is 1:1 calibration with respect to gauss, but for the sake of comparing two magnets, it's still seems to me that it's perfectly effective, since both magnets are measured using the same meter. Here's an A5 bar for example

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I'd say that a pickup winder will mention just about anything that makes their pickups different just to show they are "better" or more vintage correct than other pickup winders. So I think that if a pickup maker de-gaussed the magnets they use it's more than likely they would mention it.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

With that tool you'll have a hard time differencing an A4 from an UOA5 or an A2 from an A3...

It's OK, consider yourself warned.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I bought the magnets from Philadelphia Luthier Tools and Supplies. They came color coded and in labeled baggies, so unless Philadelphia Luthier Tools and Supplies is dishonest, I don't have to worry about the alloy types. I'm all for acquiring a device that can perform metallurgical differentiation, but I have to stay within the party budget. FWIW it was impossible to charge the A3 to the same degree as any of the others... so there's that.

Although... and I'm not sure why this is... some of the bars for a given type, like the A2s, were not equally easy to charge up, and it even seemed impossible to get them to both to be equally as strong. I wonder how consistent the mixture of elements is within those bars.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Although... and I'm not sure why this is... some of the bars for a given type, like the A2s, were not equally easy to charge up, and it even seemed impossible to get them to both to be equally as strong. I wonder how consistent the mixture of elements is within those bars.

I just experienced this today when I was charging some A8 rod magnets (yes A8 rod magnets). They didn't seem to want to charge as easily as my A5's. With my A5's I could run the pickup through twice and it would have a good charge. With the A8 I had to run it through 5 or 6 times just to get it to charge at a similar level as my A5's. Which is very peculiar considering how strong A8 is supposed to be. You'd think that it would charge easier. Maybe my batch isn't quite right in the mixture or something... I don't wanna to pretend to know the answer but I will say it was quite interesting.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Does anyone know if there is a standard practice with regard to charge levels of A2 bars and A5 bars? For example, does Seymour Duncan Co. (or DiMarzio, etc.) fully gauss their magnets, or does any given pickup design incorporate a target gauss as part of it's specification? I know the Antiquities target a lower gauss as part of their "aging", but what about other pickups that are not intended to sound "aged"?

Seriously? Give it up, DreX. The industry is not going to hand you the tools and information to compete with them. You are going to have to work it all out on your own.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Seriously? Give it up, DreX. The industry is not going to hand you the tools and information to compete with them. You are going to have to work it all out on your own.

1) I'm in the process of gathering information on my own

2) Industry insider Frank Falbo was already kind enough to respond

3) I have no intention of competing with anyone. It seems to me that a lot of the pickup winders out there don't really care how pickups work, and their customers don't want to know how they work. I would actively hate my own customers. When it comes to designing pickups, it's certainly trial and error. Wanting to know how pickups work is born out of genuine curiosity, or a distaste for mystery.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

1) I'm in the process of gathering information on my own

2) Industry insider Frank Falbo was already kind enough to respond

3) I have no intention of competing with anyone. It seems to me that a lot of the pickup winders out there don't really care how pickups work, and their customers don't want to know how they work. I would actively hate my own customers. When it comes to designing pickups, it's certainly trial and error. Wanting to know how pickups work is born out of genuine curiosity, or a distaste for mystery.

Dude, the issue isn't that YOU would compete with them. The issue is that the information you seek is exactly what their competitors would love to get a hold of, and for that reason you will never get a comprehensive, complete and accurate answer to your question, other than through your own personal trial and error. Even Frank, open and kind as he is, is very careful to protect industry secrets.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I just experienced this today when I was charging some A8 rod magnets (yes A8 rod magnets). They didn't seem to want to charge as easily as my A5's. With my A5's I could run the pickup through twice and it would have a good charge. With the A8 I had to run it through 5 or 6 times just to get it to charge at a similar level as my A5's. Which is very peculiar considering how strong A8 is supposed to be. You'd think that it would charge easier. Maybe my batch isn't quite right in the mixture or something... I don't wanna to pretend to know the answer but I will say it was quite interesting.

I hate to say that a pickup buyer should own their own little magnetometer, but I did receive a set of Fralins where every pole piece was way off from the next, ranging from 25 gauss to 40. The pickups sounded terrible. Without a magnetometer, buyers have no way of verifying the quality. Sure, it might sound terrible, but since you don't know the precise cause, it's impossible to know how to correct the problem (to replace or to return).

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Dude, the issue isn't that YOU would compete with them. The issue is that the information you seek is exactly what their competitors would love to get a hold of, and for that reason you will never get a comprehensive, complete and accurate answer to your question, other than through your own personal trial and error. Even Frank, open and kind as he is, is very careful to protect industry secrets.

Frank answered my question to 100% satisfaction. If there's an industry secret... he did not keep it.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I hate to say that a pickup buyer should own their own little magnetometer, but I did receive a set of Fralins where every pole piece was way off from the next, ranging from 25 gauss to 40. The pickups sounded terrible. Without a magnetometer, buyers have no way of verifying the quality. Sure, it might sound terrible, but since you don't know the precise cause, it's impossible to know how to correct the problem (to replace or to return).

I'd be curious to know how many pickups get returned because of issues like the rod magnets not being charged evenly. Obviously it's almost impossible to know but it makes you wonder if sometimes people blame the pickup wind, body wood, neck for less than savory tone when it could be something as simple as the magnets not being charged evenly. Obviously it's all just conjecture but still an interesting thought.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

The only way to REALLY fully-charge to full saturation any bar magnet is with a "zapper".

In my case, I use Neo jigs are to charge certain mags to certain specs, to match a certain p'up design, but by themselves are really not capable of fully charging with full saturation any Alnico mag, for that matter.

Maybe Neo mag jigs are enough for fully-charge Alnico Rods, but as I don't do single coils, I don't have enough factual experience to have a valid opinion on this matter.

Having said that, IME, no fully-charged-to-max-saturation mag sounded best in their own p'ups. Degaussing going from 5% to 20% hit the desired/requested tonal marks.

HTH,

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I'd be curious to know how many pickups get returned because of issues like the rod magnets not being charged evenly. Obviously it's almost impossible to know but it makes you wonder if sometimes people blame the pickup wind, body wood, neck for less than savory tone when it could be something as simple as the magnets not being charged evenly. Obviously it's all just conjecture but still an interesting thought.

I'm guilty of misattributing cause and effect, I was convinced that steel frets sounded glassy, much how they feel, but I was at least convinced that I didn't have enough information on hand to reach that conclusion, despite first hand experience with steel frets. All day, every day, guitarists are reaching conclusions with not a fraction of the information they would truly need to do so. That's essentially why guitar forums are notorious for being the way they are.

Another scary thought is that the major pickup manufacturers might not even check the gauss on the magnets they use at all, or they might check the first in a batch of a hundred as a representative sample. The question is really whether or not the customer will notice a problem with the tone if the magnet falls outside of some tolerance. Most people don't have measuring equipment, or two guitars with the same pickups for a direct A/B comparison. If by chance the magnet was degaussed, a guitarist might be able to compensate for the difference by raising the pickup closer to the string, and we all know, pickup height is a matter of preference, so these QC issues could easily become drowned out in the subjectivity of it all.

The original A5 magnet I pulled out of my Neck '59 test subject is actually very bizarre, to the extent that I'm not even testing with that particular magnet. I can't even get it to a full 35 gauss, and it's peak is way off center.