Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out?

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

DreX, I don't think that tool is using a proper Tesla/Gauss scale.

I think it's capable of showing magnetic strength from a scale of +/- 100, but without the possibility of comparing its readings with a Gaussmeter calibrated to a real Tesla/Gauss scale, I, for one, wouldn't make heads or tails of the resultings readings.

Of course, having a Gaussmeter is better than having none, and it can be useful so you can actually compare your readings, being made with the same instrument.

HTH,

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I think it's capable of showing magnetic strength from a scale of +/- 100, but without the possibility of comparing its readings with a Gaussmeter calibrated to a real Tesla/Gauss scale, I, for one, wouldn't make heads or tails of the resultings readings.

This does measure Gauss, that's what it's for. I know this thing might look like a toy, maybe that's why you're on about it, but it wasn't especially cheap, it's a professional piece of equipment and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt it's quality. The issue is simply that I don't have a bunch of other gauss meters around to notice if it were to improbably lose calibration. The manufacturer claims "Certifications performed in a high accuracy Hermoltz Standard at multiple test points"... sounds good to me. http://www.magwerks.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductNumber=26-03-02-05

The gauss readings I've obtained so far are in line with expectations, it's particular magnets that have fallen outside of expectation. Should I be able to get an A2 and an A5 to be equal strength even though A2 is generally said to be a weaker magnet?

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

This does measure Gauss,

It does measure magnetic fiels strenght, but the scale it's shown, for what I know, it does not relate with the Tesla/Gauss scale.

For instance, an A2 has a Gauss reading of 7200 Gauss or 720 mT, as stated by one of the best magnet makers, Arnold Magnetics.

http://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/Alnico_Literature.aspx

Click the link and download the "Cast Alnico Permanent Magnet Catalog". There you can see how foundries themselves refer to their own products.

it's a professional piece of equipment and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt it's quality.

Never said otherwise. These analog Gaussmeters have been available since the '50s, at least.

Should I be able to get an A2 and an A5 to be equal strength even though A2 is generally said to be a weaker magnet?

I suppose you could degauss an A5 to an A2 level, but you can't "overcharge" an A2 to an A5 level.

HTH,

 

[AlexR]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

As to magnets and charge, Duncan charges them before they stick them in pickups. So the accuracy isn't based on batches or anything like samples and then assuming everything else is ok.....the magnet is uncharged when supplied.

I would expect pickup winders who are also 'big' to be doing things similarly. That way they order in bulk magnets and don't have to worry about demagnetisation or anything else during transport/storage. The smaller winders might get a mix of charged and uncharged who knows. Smaller guys would probably be doing much more individual charging. I guess it all depends on the winder.


As to magnets and tonal matters, the different grades of alnico produce a different shaped field. This I believe is the reason why the eq is the way it is. It also might suggest that identical pickup height adjustment with differing alnico magnets will produce a differing rate of change to tone/output/eq.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

You guys are kidding right? neither of you know what the device is for?

That "magnetometer" is used for testing the strength of residual magnetic fields AFTER demagnetizing. The positive and negative tell you the polarity. Thats what its for.

The tool drex is after is a proper gauss meter. He can either find the ancient huge lab equipment ones or a new digital one but neither are cheap expect to pay around 500.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

That "magnetometer" is used for testing the strength of residual magnetic fields AFTER demagnetizing.

NOW it makes sense. And no, I've never ever seen one, not even been in the same room with one, hell, not even in the same CONTINENT with one!

And no, I didn't have the faintest idea about it. My only reference was seeing MJ using one. I was right about being a production tool, though.

The tool drex is after is a proper gauss meter. He can either find the ancient huge lab equipment ones or a new digital one but neither are cheap expect to pay around 500.

The GravitasTechnology Spin Doctor iS a proper Gaussmeter, costing under a Franklin. I wanted to buy from him but he just wouldn't ship to Italy.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

That "magnetometer" is used for testing the strength of residual magnetic fields AFTER demagnetizing. The positive and negative tell you the polarity. Thats what its for.

According to this page http://www.lessemf.com/dcgauss.html

DC magnetic fields can develop in many steel or iron objects if they have been exposed to magnetic fields, current, or friction. Even structural members in homes and barns have become magnetized due to stray voltage. Pocket Magnetometer This hand-held device detects residual magnetism in steel parts quickly and accurately. Simply place the test edge near or against the object being tested, and the needle gauge points to a reading representing the magnetism in the object at that site as well as polarity. Will also verify thoroughness of de-magnetizing. Check out your car, bed frame, desk furniture or any other metal objects you spend time with. Can also be used to check the strength of magnets. Two models in stock: -20 to +20 and -100 to +100 Gauss.

In your reply, you seem emphatic that it has a very specific use, but this web page claims it's dual purpose, and neither purpose would require that degaussing has already occurred. Can you think of any reason why this device would be ineffective/insufficient for my purposes?

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

The GravitasTechnology Spin Doctor iS a proper Gaussmeter, costing under a Franklin. I wanted to buy from him but he just wouldn't ship to Italy.

Going for $140 he says. I'll buy one if I can find a clear reason to spend the money.

You mention you saw MJ use one, it would be awesome if someone from SD could tell us how they use these things.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I don't work for SD any more but can tell you how I would use one. I would use one as a quick check in quality control, or if I've developed the skill/art to know how I wanted to see that needle move as I dragged it across the face of a humbucker for example, I might use it to tell me whether a pickup was in spec or not. But only if I had a skilled operator who knew what they were looking for. The sensing area is huge. Heck the darn thing is ROUND! LOL. You can't possibly get right up on top of a pole piece and read the gauss strength. There is so much flux pollution in that reading that I would not trust your allegation that you had a Fralin with differently charged poles. Your problem is you weren't getting the reading right on the top of the poles. You were getting some combination of the pole directly under your reader, and all the stray flux from the neighboring poles, some serving to boost your reader's result, but some serving to cancel it. And assuming it was a staggered pole pickup, it means that every time you got closer to a lower pole, the neighboring taller poles were polluting the meter even more.

Imagine if you were using a microphone as a dB meter, but you were "reading" a 2x12 cabinet with one speaker out of phase with the other. As you moved the mic across you'd get dramatically different readings as you passed through the phase cancel area. When you have strat pole pieces all magnetized the same direction, they create reject points between the poles. The "South" from one pole is actually fighting the neighboring pole(s) and you have basically what is tantamount to flux comb filtering. Long story short: Kojak is right, you have the wrong tool for the job. Circumcising a gnat with a chainsaw as it were...

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Going for $140 he says.

Not this one: http://gravitastech.weebly.com/spin-doctor.html

You don't need the E.R. (extended range), as it'll serve only to measure rare earth mags.

You mention you saw MJ use one

I was referring to one analog Gaussmeter similar to yours. It's on one of the videos; maybe the one where she builds a Phat Staple, IIRC.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I would not trust your allegation that you had a Fralin with differently charged poles.

You can trust that I have a lot of single coil pickups on hand, and you can trust that I've checked them also and found the Fralins to be very unique in this regard. Regardless of stray neighboring flux, there should be uniformity, and in most pickups, I see uniformity. There is no good reason why, for example, the 2nd pole should measure radically different from the 5th, since they're symmetrically oriented. Another way I could tell that they had uneven strength is just by touching a paper clip to them and feeling that some attracted more aggressively than other.

There is so much flux pollution in that reading that I would not trust your allegation that you had a Fralin with differently charged poles. Your problem is you weren't getting the reading right on the top of the poles. You were getting some combination of the pole directly under your reader, and all the stray flux from the neighboring poles, some serving to boost your reader's result, but some serving to cancel it. And assuming it was a staggered pole pickup, it means that every time you got closer to a lower pole, the neighboring taller poles were polluting the meter even more.

Imagine if you were using a microphone as a dB meter, but you were "reading" a 2x12 cabinet with one speaker out of phase with the other. As you moved the mic across you'd get dramatically different readings as you passed through the phase cancel area. When you have strat pole pieces all magnetized the same direction, they create reject points between the poles. The "South" from one pole is actually fighting the neighboring pole(s) and you have basically what is tantamount to flux comb filtering. Long story short: Kojak is right, you have the wrong tool for the job. Circumcising a gnat with a chainsaw as it were...

All of this and the the 2x12 micing analogy would only apply to a Fender type pickup that has more than one magnet at play, but I'm working with individual bars at the moment, so I won't go any further into that.

It's doesn't matter how much smearing might or might not be at play since all the bars are geometrically identical, and I'm sure this is why MJ can use one effectively. There might be smearing, but the smearing should be uniform. If the magnets came in radically different shapes and sizes, then comparisons would not be possible.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Not this one: http://gravitastech.weebly.com/spin-doctor.html

You don't need the E.R. (extended range), as it'll serve only to measure rare earth mags.


I was referring to one analog Gaussmeter similar to yours. It's on one of the videos; maybe the one where she builds a Phat Staple, IIRC.

Cool, I'll try to get one, if only to have more than one meter. I can see how they compare and contrast.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Another way I could tell that they had uneven strength is just by touching a paper clip to them and feeling that some attracted more aggressively than other.

That is probably more accurate.

All of this and the the 2x12 micing analogy would only apply to a Fender type pickup that has more than one magnet at play, but I'm working with individual bars at the moment, so I won't go any further into that.

I believe that's how I characterized the analogy in the first place, so, yes. But even with a bar magnet, the return path dramatically alters the flux at the edges. Do you really think/know you're charging the magnet that much more strongly in the center? Or is the return path altering the reading on the edges? With the gauss meters Kojak is describing you do realize it's possible to get a reading at the edge that is identical or nearly identical to the reading in the center, right?

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I believe that's how I characterized the analogy in the first place, so, yes. But even with a bar magnet, the return path dramatically alters the flux at the edges. Do you really think/know you're charging the magnet that much more strongly in the center? Or is the return path altering the reading on the edges? With the gauss meters Kojak is describing you do realize it's possible to get a reading at the edge that is identical or nearly identical to the reading in the center, right?

Regardless of wether the reading is at a specific point, or an average over an area, I just need to be sure that I've charged the magnets to some sort of maximum potential, relative to the two neodymium magnets I'm employing. So long as everything is "maxed out" in this relative context, then I can compare an A2 bar and an A5 bar and say they're equivalent with respect to how they've been set up, so that any difference that remains can be blamed on the nature of the alloy and not a difference in the way they have been prepared beforehand. Is there any reason why this hand help magnetometer can't be used to this end?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Can you think of any reason why this device would be ineffective/insufficient for my purposes?

Besides the fact that its designed to detect residual gauss and you are trying to use it to compare fully charged mags? Heres an analogy for you. You are trying to measure the height of a mountain using your notebook ruler.

That tools inaccuracy in what you're trying to make it do makes any findings or conclusions you draw highly suspect.

Your lack of fundamental understanding of what it is and how to use it leaves me with no confidence that any information you gather with it would be of worthwhile quality.

In short not only do you need the right tool for the job you need to understand and know how to use the tool.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Besides the fact that its designed to detect residual gauss and you are trying to use it to compare fully charged mags? Heres an analogy for you. You are trying to measure the height of a mountain using your notebook ruler.

That tools inaccuracy in what you're trying to make it do makes any findings or conclusions you draw highly suspect.

Your lack of fundamental understanding of what it is and how to use it leaves me with no confidence that any information you gather with it would be of worthwhile quality.

In short not only do you need the right tool for the job you need to understand and know how to use the tool.

I think that's a bit reaching to say "any findings" are suspect. MJ apparently uses one, would you say the pickups she makes are "highly suspect" or not of "worthwhile quality"?

You never addressed this point: the website I linked to said they can also be used to measure the strength of a magnet. Is that or is that not true enough for my purposes, and if not, why not? Frank and LTKojak have suggested that it doesn't measure Gauss in a very tiny area, although they haven't explained why that's necessarily required when comparing magnets of like geometry.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Anyway, I put in an order for the Spin Doctor, so I'll be able to see how accurate the hand held analogue meter is comparatively.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

I think that's a bit reaching to say "any findings" are suspect. MJ apparently uses one, would you say the pickups she makes are "highly suspect" or not of "worthwhile quality"?...Frank and LTKojak have suggested that it doesn't measure Gauss in a very tiny area, although they haven't explained why that's necessarily required when comparing magnets of like geometry.

This is about the point where, in the past, I've seen your threads devolve, so I will tread lightly. First, you need to recognize that you are not MJ. Have you been making pickups for over 30 years, under a master such as Seymour Duncan himself? You know, a 6-foot tall body builder may be able to walk right up to a refrigerator, pick it up, and load it onto a moving truck. If I tried it, I would throw a disc, pass gas, and maybe pee my pants a little. MJ does LOTS of things you can't do. But if you've ever been to a Users Group Day or watched videos that show the inside of the Engineering room, you can clearly see the other type of gauss meter hanging on the main bench. When it comes to critical testing, these "compass" meters are not used.

As for reading small areas on like-sized magnets, I have to say your whole process is just a mess. You can't expect a uniform charge out of neos, so let's pause there for a bit. You may even get a smooth reading along the outside edge of the magnet and never realize that there are cold spots in the core. Especially if you've not charged the magnet fully. At best you're reading the frosting on the cake, with little knowledge of what is under the surface. You could have hot spots along the edge and dead zones in the center. The magnet will power a pickup with that desired gauss strength but all the tertiary flux patterns in and around the magnet may be different, and it could be enough that the magnet degausses itself over time at a greater rate because it was not saturated all the way through. The pickup may sound fine, but if you intend to "test" anything, the results are garbage.

That said, even with something like THIS, there are reasons the compass style reader is not adequate. You will not know if a magnet has been corrupted by shock, heat, manufacturing inconsistencies, etc. One personal example I've spoken about previously on the forum is when I got an old JBJ. (this was before we released the Antiquity JB) It sounded great, more like what I remember JB's sounding like than a new, stock one. I began to analyze it because everyone says "old JB's sound better". Well, we know that older, rough cast, and degaussed magnets can sound different (better is subjective) so I first read the magnet. It was degaussed, but much more degaussed on the treble side of the screw coil. It was only about 1/4" but it meant the high E screw would be a little weak. In an attempt to quantify what "great" is, I recharged the magnet. Sure enough, it was "fully charged" but with mild inconsistencies across the screw side, and still with a trail-off on the treble side. It sounded more like a new JB, which was comforting to know that the magnet was a large part of the difference, but if randomness and/or stray flux was part of the "magic" then the Antiquity JB had to have a rough cast magnet, right? And so it did.

That compass meter you have there, with neo magnets to charge your Alnicos will have never, ever taught you that. You have inadequate tools if you're trying to perform any kind of research. If you get the new gauss meter and it seems to confirm everything your compass meter has told you, it still means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It just means you haven't found the reasons the new meter is necessary yet.

 

[DreX]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

This is about the point where, in the past, I've seen your threads devolve, so I will tread lightly. First, you need to recognize that you are not MJ. Have you been making pickups for over 30 years, under a master such as Seymour Duncan himself? You know, a 6-foot tall body builder may be able to walk right up to a refrigerator, pick it up, and load it onto a moving truck. If I tried it, I would throw a disc, pass gas, and maybe pee my pants a little. MJ does LOTS of things you can't do. But if you've ever been to a Users Group Day or watched videos that show the inside of the Engineering room, you can clearly see the other type of gauss meter hanging on the main bench. When it comes to critical testing, these "compass" meters are not used.

You're trying to pull an "appeal to authority" by saying in essence "I don't know how she uses it to a productive end, I just know that you can't." If that hand held meter was only useful for measuring stray, residual magnetism after degaussing, it's unlikely they would keep such a thing around a place where they utilize fully charged magnets most of the time, as you said yourself.

As for reading small areas on like-sized magnets, I have to say your whole process is just a mess. You can't expect a uniform charge out of neos, so let's pause there for a bit. You may even get a smooth reading along the outside edge of the magnet and never realize that there are cold spots in the core. Especially if you've not charged the magnet fully. At best you're reading the frosting on the cake, with little knowledge of what is under the surface. You could have hot spots along the edge and dead zones in the center. The magnet will power a pickup with that desired gauss strength but all the tertiary flux patterns in and around the magnet may be different, and it could be enough that the magnet degausses itself over time at a greater rate because it was not saturated all the way through. The pickup may sound fine, but if you intend to "test" anything, the results are garbage.

Neodymium charging is a common practice in the production of something that is to be heard and used, and so it is worthwhile to test. The method of charging simply represents a caveat, a condition of the test (of which there are many), it in no way invalidates the test itself. How closely all this relates to a real guitar is up to the person to weigh on their own, but it should be noted that since no two people have the same guitar, no test will every be 100% representative of all guitars.

That said, even with something like THIS, there are reasons the compass style reader is not adequate. You will not know if a magnet has been corrupted by shock, heat, manufacturing inconsistencies, etc. One personal example I've spoken about previously on the forum is when I got an old JBJ. (this was before we released the Antiquity JB) It sounded great, more like what I remember JB's sounding like than a new, stock one. I began to analyze it because everyone says "old JB's sound better". Well, we know that older, rough cast, and degaussed magnets can sound different (better is subjective) so I first read the magnet. It was degaussed, but much more degaussed on the treble side of the screw coil. It was only about 1/4" but it meant the high E screw would be a little weak. In an attempt to quantify what "great" is, I recharged the magnet. Sure enough, it was "fully charged" but with mild inconsistencies across the screw side, and still with a trail-off on the treble side. It sounded more like a new JB, which was comforting to know that the magnet was a large part of the difference, but if randomness and/or stray flux was part of the "magic" then the Antiquity JB had to have a rough cast magnet, right? And so it did.

That compass meter you have there, with neo magnets to charge your Alnicos will have never, ever taught you that. You have inadequate tools if you're trying to perform any kind of research. If you get the new gauss meter and it seems to confirm everything your compass meter has told you, it still means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It just means you haven't found the reasons the new meter is necessary yet.

For the record, I do see inconsistencies in the bars with that hand held meter. I don't know how long it has been since you used on, but it's not as though the needle assumes a fixed position once it's within a foot of the magnet, I see variance between the 1/4 and 3/4 marks along the edge of a given magnet, and more variation still when it's flipped around. Say what you will about the meter, but if the allows were pure and consistent, that simply would not happen. In fact, from this batch I received, I see such a lack of uniformity that I find it hard to believe that even production magnets have much uniformity to them. As I said a page back, the magnet that came with the pickup was the worst offender. Once I receive the Spin Doctor, I'll have an even better idea as to the consistency.

To say these tools are inadequate for "any kind of research" implies you know a) what my research objectives, and b) what margin for error is or is not acceptable to whoever might care about the results. IMO, the variance I see in my material is going to be little or no different than the variance seen in production products. The degree to which the result stray from a given pickup is very likely to be proportionate to the degree from which any given pickup strays from another like it. It's said all the time that AlNiCo 5 can vary from foundry to foundry, yet that doesn't stop people from making statements about the sound of an AlNiCo 5 bar in a given pickup.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Do major winders charge magnets to a target gauss, or do they always max them out

Maybe it's just me, DreX, but, reading through this thread, you don't seem very grateful for the help you've received.

It seems things are once again devolving into the "DreX comment/question...member response...challenge/nitpick/argue...member response...challenge/nitpick/argue" pattern your threads typically do.

Can't you just say "thank you"?