Do unwound guitar strings work for fine wiring jobs?

[Inflames626]

Hi guys,
I feel like this is a silly question but here goes.

I've noticed quality fine wire that is 1) easy to strip, 2) flexible, and 3) strong is a bit hard to find.

Once things get down to the fineness of a human hair, like with 4 conductor guitar wiring, in my experience wiring DPDT switches can be difficult.

For example, I never thought I would get my phase push/pull pot wired up. It was only after successfully cannibalizing the ground wire from a failed Triple Shot ring installation that I found a wire (the bare ground wire) that was fine enough to be able to be fed through the various eyelets on the DPDT switch while remaining strong enough not to break.

Tinning the wires helps with fraying, but they can still become brittle or be easily separated with a small amount of force, or too much solder can accumulate and the wire becomes difficult to feed through small holes. I know some people use solder for short, small diameter runs but I'm always concerned my solder "wires" will melt.

I've bought four conductor wire from Stew Mac, but I find it to be fairly cheap feeling and prone to breakage. When stripping the wire, often the wire becomes damaged. When using a wire stripping tool or even a razor, feeling when you have cut through the insulation without breaking the wires becomes an art. And that's before you slowly strip the insulation away and hope it doesn't break the wire underneath.

My short term solution has been to buy vintage style cloth covered wire, which I find easier to strip. But that doesn't solve the problem with very fine wire like on DPDT switches.

We all have excess guitar strings lying around. I thought maybe something like a high E string from a 9 gauge string set could be used for fine wiring jobs.

It's my understanding that on the most common sets unwound strings are essentially a steel core, while wound strings have a nickel coating. I thought this steel core could be used for short, fine diameter wiring runs with very small solder joints.

Basically I need something that has the strength and flexibility of electrically conductive fishing line.

Connecting pots, jacks, and switches is much easier. I use the cloth wire for that.

Recently I was lucky enough to find a 30 ft. spool of 16 gauge automotive wire on the shoulder of the highway outside of my house--I guess it fell off someone's truck. I will probably try that too as it seems very strong, durable, and easy to strip.

What has improved my experience is moving from a 40 watt soldering iron with a chisel tip to a 60 watt soldering iron with a conical tip. I know many are concerned about burning up pots with a hotter iron but I find I don't have to leave the iron at the solder joint nearly as long for the connection to be made. Meanwhile I have burned up pots with a 40 watt when I had to leave the iron against the solder joint for a relatively long period of time waiting for the connection to be made.

The 60 watt Weller irons with the built in LEDs are really useful. Meanwhile the Stew Mac Solomon irons have tips that are much harder to find by comparison, and only Stew Mac carries them.

I appreciate all ideas and feedback. Thanks.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

Guitar strings are steel, frequently stainless steel or nickel plated at least, and won't solder with regular 60/40 or 63/37 solder.

Moreover, proper 22 gauge multi- strand copper wire is easy to find, either regular PVC coated or cloth coated. The latter has the advantage of being able to push back the insulation during soldering, so it doesn't melt or burn.

Is Amazon not available where you live?

 

[Inflames626]

Guitar strings are steel, frequently stainless steel or nickel plated at least, and won't solder with regular 60/40 or 63/37 solder.

Moreover, proper 22 gauge multi- strand copper wire is easy to find, either regular PVC coated or cloth coated. The latter has the advantage of being able to push back the insulation during soldering, so it doesn't melt or burn.

Is Amazon not available where you live?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=22+gauge...22+gauge+copper+wire,aps,241&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

Too many choices and I'm not exactly sure which is the ideal wire for guitar. I've never been satisfied with the wiring I've found. It is easier to stick with Stew Mac.

Multi-strand is too thick and more difficult to thread through the DPDT eyelets. Single strands are not strong enough. Trying to keep multiple strands together without fraying and coming apart can be difficult.

I was not aware that stainless steel and nickel would not solder with 60/40.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

22 or 24 AWG (American Wire Gauge) multistrand copper is ideal for guitar wiring. The thing to remember about wire gauges is that the higher the gauge number, the thinner the wire is.

If you twist the strands together you shouldn't have any problems threading them through eyelets on push-pulls, especially if you dont "pre-tin" the eyelets or the wire.

Use proper copper wire, not copper coated aluminum wire.

Also remember you're dealing with a volt or so and milliamps. It's not an electric oven!

Steels can be soldered, it's called silver soldering or brazing (using a brass alloy as the solder), but the temperatures required are so high you'll cook anything inside a guitar's electronics. The brazing temperature for steel is 840 deg. Fahrenheit or higher. The exception is tin plated steel, "tinplate", where the tin layer is applied in the steel mill. That can be soldered at lower temperatures because the solder fuses to the tin, not the steel. Tinplate used to be used for making cans for food, hence "tin can", but it's pretty rare these days, especially outside of the canning industry.

 

[Artie]

Also remember you're dealing with a volt or so and milliamps. It's not an electric oven!

Exactly. And not to put to fine a point on it, but it's millionth's of an amp. Guitar pickups use 42/43 gauge wire. The only reason we use larger connection wire is because our fingers are so big.

 

[Inflames626]

Thanks guys. The specific metal didn't occur to me as important, mainly because stripped 4 conductor leads are silver-ish and I didn't associate that with brownish copper (although I knew the pickup coils were copper).

I thought as long as the wire were any metal it would be fine for guitar work, although I thought nickel might not be an ideal metal in the same ways aluminum is a metal but not magnetic or as good a conductor as copper.

Basically I thought something might be flawed with my idea but I wasn't sure what. And it seemed like a good use for otherwise wasted clipped guitar strings.

Unfortunately when using a traditional Bournes style push/pull pot, I find I often have to pre-tin the wire to keep it from fraying, which makes it too thick for the eyelet unless I use pliers and finesse the bumps down until the wire can go through. I would much prefer it if each conductor on a pickup were tightly twisted fine wire (like a ground wire) instead of wires placed parallel to each other. It's far too easy to pull wires off or break them inside the insulation when stripping 4 conductor pickup wire.

I may try the newer CTS push/pulls with the soldering pads, but those seem bulkier and more problematic in some ways (less secure physical connection than wrapping around an eyelet). I'm not enough of a tone snob to care about the tone differences between CTS, Bournes, and Alphas, as I keep everything wide open.

I do find now that it's much easier to wire up the DPDT first and then solder every joint than trying to solder each joint before moving on to the next. And using a single wire to run through the pot lugs and the eyelets on the phase switch greatly simplified that tedious process.

I'm also glad ThreeChordWonder clarified the steel soldering issue because I would have though 60/40 silver bearing solder (as opposed to rosin core) might have solved that problem for guitar work.

As you can see, my knowledge of these things is just enough to do guitar wiring, hence asking questions on the forum.

Also, my wiring work on the Triple Shots and phase switch wasn't as bad as I thought (it doesn't have strings or a bridge on it right now). It turns out my guitar cable was faulty. Tapping the neck pickup in all switch/pot positions produces sound, and there's no audible hum.

Clearly, it hasn't been my week guitar-wise.

 

[Inflames626]

Exactly. And not to put to fine a point on it, but it's millionth's of an amp. Guitar pickups use 42/43 gauge wire. The only reason we use larger connection wire is because our fingers are so big.

Amen to that, ArtieToo .

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

Thanks guys. The specific metal didn't occur to me as important, mainly because stripped 4 conductor leads are silver-ish and I didn't associate that with brownish copper (although I knew the pickup coils were copper).

I thought as long as the wire were any metal it would be fine for guitar work, although I thought nickel might not be an ideal metal in the same ways aluminum is a metal but not magnetic or as good a conductor as copper.

Basically I thought something might be flawed with my idea but I wasn't sure what. And it seemed like a good use for otherwise wasted clipped guitar strings.

Unfortunately when using a traditional Bournes style push/pull pot, I find I often have to pre-tin the wire to keep it from fraying, which makes it too thick for the eyelet unless I use pliers and finesse the bumps down until the wire can go through. I would much prefer it if each conductor on a pickup were tightly twisted fine wire (like a ground wire) instead of wires placed parallel to each other. It's far too easy to pull wires off or break them inside the insulation when stripping 4 conductor pickup wire.

I may try the newer CTS push/pulls with the soldering pads, but those seem bulkier and more problematic in some ways (less secure physical connection than wrapping around an eyelet). I'm not enough of a tone snob to care about the tone differences between CTS, Bournes, and Alphas, as I keep everything wide open.

I do find now that it's much easier to wire up the DPDT first and then solder every joint than trying to solder each joint before moving on to the next. And using a single wire to run through the pot lugs and the eyelets on the phase switch greatly simplified that tedious process.

I'm also glad ThreeChordWonder clarified the steel soldering issue because I would have though 60/40 silver bearing solder (as opposed to rosin core) might have solved that problem for guitar work.

As you can see, my knowledge of these things is just enough to do guitar wiring, hence asking questions on the forum.

Also, my wiring work on the Triple Shots and phase switch wasn't as bad as I thought (it doesn't have strings or a bridge on it right now). It turns out my guitar cable was faulty. Tapping the neck pickup in all switch/pot positions produces sound, and there's no audible hum.

Clearly, it hasn't been my week guitar-wise.

I've taken to soldering "tails" of 22 or 24 gaige wire to the ends of the pickup wires. Done properly, there's no electrical issues. The thicker wires are more robust, the tails compensate for the exposed ends of the pickups' own wires not being long enough in some instances, and, if you do have to chop back and resolder, you're chopping back "sacrificial" wire. You can solder the tails to the push-pulls first, or solder them to the ends of the pickup wires, your choice. Just expose about 1/4 to 3/8 inch on each, twist them together, solder them, bend the joint back and put heat shrink over it.

If you must pre-tin ends, use as little solder as possible. Generally the "bigger the blob the better the job" is said in jest. Just enough solder is all you need electrically and any extra is just a waste.

60/40 solder us usually 60% tin, 40% lead, no silver. You should use this or the 63/37 mix, which is the "eutectic" alloy. That means it has the lowest (by a few degrees) melting point and goes from solid to liquid or liquid back to solid without any "mushy" phase in between.

Silver solders are best used for jewelry.

Aluminum, steel and nickel are actually worse conductors than copper.

 

[Inflames626]

I've taken to soldering "tails" of 22 or 24 gaige wire to the ends of the pickup wires. Done properly, there's no electrical issues. The thicker wires are more robust, the tails compensate for the exposed ends of the pickups' own wires not being long enough in some instances, and, if you do have to chop back and resolder, you're chopping back "sacrificial" wire. You can solder the tails to the push-pulls first, or solder them to the ends of the pickup wires, your choice. Just expose about 1/4 to 3/8 inch on each, twist them together, solder them, bend the joint back and put heat shrink over it.

If you must pre-tin ends, use as little solder as possible. Generally the "bigger the blob the better the job" is said in jest. Just enough solder is all you need electrically and any extra is just a waste.

60/40 solder us usually 60% tin, 40% lead, no silver. You should use this or the 63/37 mix, which is the "eutectic" alloy. That means it has the lowest (by a few degrees) melting point and goes from solid to liquid or liquid back to solid without any "mushy" phase in between.

Silver solders are best used for jewelry.

Aluminum, steel and nickel are actually worse conductors than copper.

God bless you, sir. This is great advice.

 

[Inflames626]

Also, sometimes it is easy to use too much solder on the DPDT eyelets and have excess flow over to parallel wires and make connections between wires you don't want to connect.

I have seen a few wiring jobs that use shrink tubing over the eyelets, but I considered this beyond my ability and considered it overkill if I ever wanted to swap pickups and reuse the same pots.

I find most DPDT pots are only good for 2-3 installs.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

^Solder wick helps but the eyelets can still get too small. I usually just surface mount.

As for adding heat shrink, that's getting a bit anal. If you havent created a solder bridge, 1 volt isnt going to arc across the contacts!

 

[Inflames626]

I thought the heat shrink was done more to prevent breakage due to movement--like strain relief on a cable?

The thought of those wires breaking in there and having to remove it just to re-solder and re-shrink wrap seems like a pain.

I often swap pickups so the thought of taking a razor and cutting the shrink tubing off such a small connection as an extra step doesn't strike me as convenient. If I knew I were going to keep the pickups in the guitar for 20 years I might feel differently.

Thankfully I have some solder wick but I don't know how useful it is because I'm not terribly good at using it.

Surface mounting on the eyelets is what I used to do--basically the wire is parallel to the eyelet--but it's hard to get the wire to lie flat and not shift, creating a cold solder joint.

I purchased one of those Solder Monsters from Stew Mac. It is very helpful but overpriced. Even with four clamps it cannot easily fit its small alligator clips around the parts of a DPDT pot, especially a solid shaft one. I usually have to clasp on the flat parts, such as the little brown PCB between the lugs and the shaft.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

Why would they break? They're hidden in a control cavity.

As for holding things, you need a set of asbestos fingers, me old china.

 

[magillver]

2 things I'd suggest:
1) Solder flux helps the wire heat up and the solder flow faster and smoother, I put a touch of paste flux on the eyelet and when you push your wire through, it picks up a bit of the flux as well, then you melt a drop of solder into the tip of your iron touch it to the eyelet with the wire passing through, and you have a quick, clean, relatively low heat solder connection.
2) For a source of thin gauge copper wire, grab and strip a piece of network cable, which is generally 8 strands of solid, 24awg copper.
​​​​​​​BTW, with the miniscule voltages and currents that we're dealing with, the particular conductivity of the wire is fairly moot. At these levels copper, aluminum, steel, lead, almost any wire you have available (and can solder) will work, electrically speaking...

 

[Inflames626]

Why would they break? They're hidden in a control cavity.

As for holding things, you need a set of asbestos fingers, me old china.

I just like the idea of the wiring being able to take some mild mechanical abuse--bumping, jostling, putting it in the case for travel, etc.--without coming unattached. This is especially the case in a Triple Shot guitar where if the small connectors come loose or break from the back of the pickup it might not be fixable in an emergency without the use of a solder bench and someone who knows what they're doing.

A strong physical connection is more important for something like a jack that is frequently manipulated, but the small connections are such a pain and buried so deep in the guitar they are important, too, even lowly ground wires and grounding screws. I would hate to be digging around in a guitar minutes before a show trying to find something that went wrong at the last second. It's best to prevent these problems before they occur by doing it right the first time.

As an example, I have a Hamer Scarab with a Gibson Classic 57+ in the neck. If every third Tuesday in a leap year you wiggle the pot and put your tongue in your cheek a certain way, it might crackle and make some noise.

I need to recheck that wiring job, now that I think of it.

 

[Inflames626]

Also I have a lot of metal guitars with very small control cavities. Some are master volume knob and switch only. This makes it easier for stuff to become disconnected since there is less room to work.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

If you have adequate solder joints in the first place, moving your guitar around, within reason, isn't going to break anything.

 

[Inflames626]

If you have adequate solder joints in the first place, moving your guitar around, within reason, isn't going to break anything.

Who says I will have adequate solder joints?

 

[GuitarDoc]

Let's clear up a few things...

If you want a flexible wire...guitar strings (even the high "E" string of an 8 gauge set) are NOT it (even if they were highly conductive).
The size of the wire doesn't need to be any larger than 42 gauge to handle ANY current generated in a guitar circuit.
For strength and flexibility you do NOT want solid core (single strand) wire, you want "stranded" wire.
I've found that this is the perfect wire for guitar wiring: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G872J7T...v_ov_lig_dp_it. It is super flexible (due to
the silicone insulation and small gauge), very strong, fits through the tiniest eyelets of any DPDT switch or output jack, easy to strip, easy to solder (it's pre-tinned).
The less solder you use the better (avoid "blobs" at all cost).
To feed stranded wire through tiny eyelets, twist the wire tightly and tin with a TINY amount of solder (to keep the strands together).
Hint: if you are using a thicker stranded wire that doesn't fit through small holes, just cut off a few strands until it does fit. It will NOT reduce electrical conduction or anything else to do so.
Using a small amount of liquid or paste flux is a good idea and doesn't hurt anything (as long as you DON'T use an acid flux.
Always, yes always, did I say always, OK...ALWAYS heat the metal first then add the solder. Remember..."meat follows heat"
Use a lot of heat (high wattage iron) for a short period of time rather than a little heat (low wattage iron) for a longer period of time to heat the metal hot enough for solder to flow.
Avoid "cold solder joints" by making the solder flow like water rather than building cold blobs.
Wires in a guitar (other than at the jack connection) are not going to move around and break when the guitar is moved...even in the most theatric maneuvers on stage.

2 things I'd suggest:
1) Solder flux helps the wire heat up and the solder flow faster and smoother

It doesn't help the wire heat up...if anything it hinders it slightly, but not enough to matter at all. But it does help the solder flow. Flux can be a very helpful tool.

I put a touch of paste flux on the eyelet and when you push your wire through, it picks up a bit of the flux as well, then you melt a drop of solder into the tip of your iron touch it to the eyelet with the wire passing through, and you have a quick, clean, relatively low heat solder connection.

This will work, but it is not the best way to do it. The best way would be to twist and pre-tin the stranded wire, feed it through the eyelet, put a tiny spot of flux on the eyelet, touch the iron to both the wire and eyelet, THEN add a tiny bit of solder and let it flow to both the wire and eyelet. Do not put the solder on the iron first. This can sometimes cause a small film of oxidation to form on the surface of the solder and make it more difficult for it to "stick" to whatever you're soldering. That's why it's best to put the iron on the metal and heat the metal first then let the solder flow directly onto it.


2) For a source of thin gauge copper wire, grab and strip a piece of network cable, which is generally 8 strands of solid, 24awg copper.
BTW, with the miniscule voltages and currents that we're dealing with, the particular conductivity of the wire is fairly moot. At these levels copper, aluminum, steel, lead, almost any wire you have available (and can solder) will work, electrically speaking...[/QUOTE]

No, that wire is solid (not stranded) and can easily break if bended and is way stiffer than stranded wire. A 32 gauge solid wire is much stiffer than even a 22 gauge stranded wire. That's the very reason stranded wire was created...to be stronger but more flexible than solid wire.

 

[Inflames626]

In my experience, shifting and moving does happen if the star washers and other items that hold the pots come loose, which causes the pot to shift, which can potentially weaken or break a delicate connection.

This is especially the case in situations like mine where you are using larger diameter domestic pots in Asian built guitars with smaller holes and a taper reamer has to be used to slightly enlarge the pot holes. Usually the resulting hole is slightly too large, or movement of the pot threads in and out against bare wood over multiple installs widens the pot hole a bit, causing the pot to wiggle. In short, something reamed by hand isn't going to be as snug as something that was drilled to the correct size from the factory.

Hand tightening works in a pinch. I prefer pliers on things like washers (I am sure there is a special tool for this) but am careful/concerned about the finish in case of slippage.

Thanks for the link to your preferred wire, GuitarDoc . Out of curiosity:

1) Why did cloth covered vintage wire fall out of favor? In my experience cloth wire is easier to strip, the wire inside is thicker and stronger than insulated wire (at least the cloth wire I got from Stew Mac is, but is too thick for DPDT eyelets), and the coating doesn't melt like insulated wire whenever the iron graces the wire in a tight cavity.

My guess is insulated wire is just that--better insulated from electrical interference--and perhaps it was easier to source multi colored plastic/rubber coated insulated wire than it was to make multi-colored cloth wire.

My initial interest in guitar wire as a conductor was exactly because of the short distances and small electrical currents involved. Rick Hunt, a tech at EMG, and I once discussed using silver wire as a conductor for guitar wire in the early 2000s. Apparently it brightened the tone according to tests EMG did. But they, and I, had trouble sourcing silver guitar wire at that fine a gauge at an affordable price.

2) "Do not put the solder on the iron first. This can sometimes cause a small film of oxidation to form on the surface of the solder and make it more difficult for it to "stick" to whatever you're soldering. That's why it's best to put the iron on the metal and heat the metal first then let the solder flow directly onto it."

My understanding of soldering is solder needs to be applied to the iron first to transfer heat and to PREVENT oxidation, especially when the tip is hot and not being used. Then it is better to coat the tip with solder before the solder tip gets hot, burns out, and the solder no longer bonds to the tip surface (a problem I had with 40 watt irons).

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.