Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

My understanding is (and this is from the pedal roundtable a the NY Amp Show last year): lots of true bypass pedals thin your tone out/make it overly bright. Adding a buffer helps that problem. I don't think a buffer is supposed to brighten your tone, but make it less bright.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong, wrong... just plain all wrong.

True bypass pedals shouldn't effect a thing; that's the whole point of them. If your true bypass pedal makes things bright, it ain't true bypass. If the manufacturer claims it's true bypass and it makes it brighter, it's broke.

Capacitance is the reason why people use buffers in the first place and built up capacitance is what causes your tone to become less defined and the treble will roll off (I've noticed the the notes lose punch throughout and the lowend really becomes "mushy" as well, although most people just address the treble roll off). True bypass pedals don't amplify your signal, they reflect the tone of the cable itself as it is, completely uncolored and a good buffer will add back that "direct to amp" tone and feel without coloring it too badly. Additional cabling doesn't make your rig brighter, it makes it duller. If anything is going to make things bright or thin, it's going to be thanks to a sh*tty buffer or too much buffering than what is warranted to begin with. I don't care what anybody says, no buffer out there is transparent, but a good buffer will retain the lowend as well as the highend. The VHT Valvulator can be one such device (especially with a good tube in there like a Telefunken... it was very balanced).

I'd start by plugging in your guitar to your amp and evaluate what you've got there. If it sounds good there, slowly start adding things back in and re-listen to your bypassed tone. Eventually, you'll hear what pedal is sucking the tone. Don't negate really listening to what your Valvulator is doing either... try simply plugging it in line with your 2 20' cables and hear what kind of coloration it imparts.

People seem to think buffering in the front and at the end of the pedalboard is always a good idea (I used to think that years ago when I was impressionable as well). The real answer is that it all depends what you've got. Depending on the capacitance of your guitar cable, the tone you're looking for, how long of a cable run etc., you may find that multiple buffers will actually ruin your tone. A good buffer will run through (2) 20' cables and several true bypass pedals just fine without needing any additional buffering. Don't let me tell you though - hear for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

TGWIF is right: use a buffer when you start noticing that your bypassed tone is starting to suffer, there are too many variables to put any sort of definitive answer as to when a buffer is warranted.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

I do notice a difference between going direct and going thru pedals tone wise which is why I opted for a good buffer

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

I do notice a difference between going direct and going thru pedals tone wise which is why I opted for a good buffer

Yeah but you have more issues than just that going on right now...

IMHO there is little more than can be said in this thread about it in general but if you want the help I am happy to help, just drop me a PM.

Best of luck!

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

I'm sorry, but this is wrong, wrong... just plain all wrong. Lots of interesting stuff.

This is all fascinating stuff, but what is your source, if I may ask? This is not what I heard at the NY Amp Show, and that round table had 5-6 boutique pedal builders there.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

I miss spoke in regards to adding character to a dark amp. Sometimes it's hard to find the right words to say while jotting down one's thoughts and transcribing it on here, esp during working hours.

I wasn't looking to turn my VHT into a Vox or Fender style clean. There's nothing out there that can turn one amp into another. My amp does have a nice clean, sort of Hiwatt-ish. It's very nice for jazz. My idea of a clean is that 80s hair metal band (insert Def Leppard or just about any other band here) clean. Throwing chorus on def helps me achieve it. It makes it more lush. I don't like reverb, so I use a touch of delay to add depth to it.

My thoughts on this particular buffer adds a bit of sparkle and mids. So you get an idea of what I was talking about throughout this thread, please check out this video.



(Hope it works. I'm currently at work with certain internet restrictions and YOuTube is one of em.)





Now some will say you don't need a buffer if one is only running 5-6 pedals. That may be the case, but I would much rather cover my bases. Some pedals have buffers already in them while others have "True Bypass." In terms of the buffers, just because some have them in there it doesn't mean they're actually good.

One thing I learned from Sound Design is that the more connectors you add, the more interference/signal loss you can expect. The buffer will restore some of that signal loss and make it more level which is the sole reason I got it.

I also picked up a power supply to individually power pedals instead of daisy chaining them together. This should help with the ground hum and regulate the necessary individual voltages.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

Also in terms of Speakers...........


I'm running a 212 cab with Celestion Vintage 30 and a Celestion Classic Lead 80.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

A good power supply is key IMO when planning a pro level set up as are good interconnect cables.

As for the buffer...using a buffer to add sparkle or whatever is just not the correct use and shouldn't really be used for that, will it do that...maybe it will but that's not the purpose and that's not what it's best for and there are better things out there to do that.

Again, best of luck with this!

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

True bypass pedals shouldn't effect a thing;

Yeah and my name is Merlin the friendly ghost
Everything and not much affects your signal.....

 

[mwalluk]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

A good power supply is key IMO when planning a pro level set up as are good interconnect cables.

As for the buffer...using a buffer to add sparkle or whatever is just not the correct use and shouldn't really be used for that, will it do that...maybe it will but that's not the purpose and that's not what it's best for and there are better things out there to do that.

Again, best of luck with this!

I'm mainly using it to stop signal loss, the sparkle is just a bonus.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

This is all fascinating stuff, but what is your source, if I may ask? This is not what I heard at the NY Amp Show, and that round table had 5-6 boutique pedal builders there.

You can read all about it at your favorite forum (which is probably where you found out about the NY Amp Show initially), but beware as there's just as much misinformation as there is truth so you have to do some sifting to find the good from the bad. I've been a victim of the placebo effect before and extensive A/Bing was the only way to know what I was hearing actually had some substance to it.

All I'm saying is for people to use their ears. Don't just take my word for it. Stop listening to what other people say and make your own judgements. Please don't take it as I'm singling you out TO, I'm just bringing to light the fact that as musicians we have a tendency to follow opinions instead of drawing our own; one large downside to internet forums. I've played around with cable signaling long enough to draw my own conclusions and everyone else should do the same.

Listening to others preach about when to use buffers and when not to, where to put the buffer, whether or not to add a second buffer, etc... the list went on and on and on.... in the end, the only way I was happy with my rig was when I analyzed what was good and what was missing. There's really no point in buying something just because someone says so. You need to assess what's missing and buy something that will address that issue. For some people "if it's not broke don't fix it" applies here.

The way I got started is that I would plug directly into my amp, loved the sound, put the signal through my pedalboard and hated how the drastically the EQ and the feel of the amp would change. That's when I started taking out the crappy buffers, started messing around with different standalone buffers and started using true bypass pedals because it was easier to keep some sort of a common reference point. You could also take lots of pedals with buffers and throw them through something like a true bypass pedal loop switcher if you really like the pedal, but don't want the buffered signal coloration.

My opinion is this (and I know not everyone's going to agree here, but...): it's easier to tweak your rig around one buffered device than to play around with multiple buffers and try to get the sound consistent. If you don't care, that's cool, but if you like the direct-to-amp sound and you're frustrated with the signal degradation from cable capacitance (and yes, connectors are going to impart signal loss to a certain degree as well, although I feel it's pretty small in the grand scheme of things... YMMV), a good buffer can work wonders. I've experienced the harsh highend from having too much buffering and I've experienced my rig as being too dull from not having any (staying with strictly true bypass pedals without anything buffering it). The key is to find what combination works for your rig and what you're looking for out of it. No one combination is going to work. I don't care if you have pedals with buffers built in or buffered effects on top of other effects... if it all plays nice together and sounds good, stick with it.


Sorry mwalluck about derailing the **** out of your thread Sounds like your Fryette Valvulator did the trick. If your rig has that middle and topend restored that you were looking for then that's always a good thing. :fing2: One thing I will say is that EQing is simply not going to do what a buffer will do in your rig. You may be able to dial in additional treble, or midrange or bass, but you'll never get the articulation and note separation that a buffered signal can restore and an EQ will never change the "feel" of the amp or the way it reacts to your pick attack.

 

[samroney]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

If you're using the fryette and the TU3 at the beginning, you have 2 buffers at the the beginning. The TU3 has a built in buffer. I'd move it or the fryette to the end. Also, with the 6 pedals you mentioned, you'd be fine with just one at the end if you'd switch to a 10ft between board and guitar. Can't imagine why you'd need to be 20ft from your board. 20ft from board to amp, I get- but get a 10 ft cable from guitar to pedal board. Makes a huge difference. A 20 ft cable plugging into your guitar is going to screw up your tone for anything other than ultra high gain stuff that masks any of the actual character of the guitar. A buffer at the beginning of your chain will help a little with that, but there's no buffer that will make up for it better that cutting your cable length in half.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

if you are on stage 10' isnt all that much. i usually use 12' cables but there are times im at the end of my leash. oh and this thread is from 2011

 

[Securb]

Re: Does a Buffer go infront of pedal board or behind?

If you're using a One Spot thats your first order of business...GET RID OF THE ONE SPOT AND GET A GOOD POWER SUPPLY.

I have multiple power supplys ranging from high end to - run of the mill. I also have two One Spots. I have never had an issue with them in terms of noise or sagging. Unless the OP is running some high mA pedals I don't see this being the problem. The One Spot is 1700 mA unless the OP has the 8 pedal adapter on it and is running 8 delays he should be fine.