Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

[vinnie1971]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

Cort Classic Rocker alnico 2 is assymetric. The bridge is 4K on the north and 4.5k on the south. Splitting to the south coil gives a good tone.
Some people might snort that these are Korean lower end pickups, but they are very close to my Gibson Classic 57s in tone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

the difference in parasitic capacitance between them would have to be astronomical for a pickup coil, in order for it to serve the purpose here.

. Yeah but if we consider an unloaded scenario, with two coils in series the total winding capacitance of both coils would be lower in value than the smallest capacitance. So if we have one coil loaded with our artifically increased capacitance of .001uf, with the other coil left with a winding capacitance of say 100pf, the total combined capacitance across the series coils would still be slightly lower than 100pf, with the cable capacitance still behaving as the dominant factor when loaded. It has to then be a phase shift produced between both coils that is primarily responsible for secondary resonance peak, otherwise you would be stuck in the same scenario, and they would just combine as a singular even if you artifically loaded one coil with extra capacitance. I remember reading somewhere that DiMarzio themselves never claimed the effect was drastic in most of the pickups that brandished the patent .

The added ferrous core materials only provide a tiny boost in inductance, because as high as their permeability might be, the majority of the core itself is air, and the vast majority of the magnetic circuit, as a whole, is air. It would be similar to making an inductor's core slightly longer. On top of that, DiMarzio puts these things in both coils, so the boost will be symmetrical. And on top of that, the way the patent is worded, with "same number of turns" of wire per coil is going out of their way to make sure the inductances are close. If diverging inductances are the secret recipe, then the patent would be shooting itself in the foot by the second sentence.

You can say a pickup sounds "scooped", but everyone says that about the '59 model, and it's using no such coil imbalances. People's ears aren't a suitable stand in for an actual response analysis.

Patents are abstracts, and worded the way they are to be legally factual without being factual in absolute practice. i think relying solely on the patents wording as a 100% representation is fairly unreliable seeing most of what is outlined is still covered with in it, and that includes the use of two separate wire gauges on each coil. So long as it’s in there it’s somewhat protected as stated, and nobody is going to want to defend themselves in court from a sue happy company with resources like DiMarzio. Mesa is guilty of the same thing.

Regarding the Steve’s special anecdotally I can say that it’s not scooped in the same way a custom 5 or a paf is. I could also say it does sound somewhat different depending on how it’s orientated. From a construction perspective and taking into account a first approximation circuit analysis, it probably shouldn’t exist or sound the way it does in other words. Until I’m willing to spend more time analyzing it or dissecting it, or somebody else wants to, it will have to remain a mystery.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

. I remember reading somewhere that DiMarzio themselves never claimed the effect was drastic in most of the pickups that brandished the patent .

And that's what tests suggest too.

Anyway, it's difficult to know which DiMarzio products the patent covers concretely...

Example: the P90 sized DiMarzio DLX + has a coil measuring more than twice the DCR of the other (out of my head: 5.35k on one hand, 12.1k on the other hand)... But both coils have the same inductance @ 120hz... and the difference of resonance between them is fairly subtle. Dual-resonance or not? The DLX is not listed as such, if memory serves me.

If I take another DiMarzio model that I've tested and which is patented as dual-resonance... what did I find? Less than 1k of difference... Almost strictly the same inductance... but a stronger double resonant peak than with the DLX.

DiMarzio won't let us know what is exactly dual-resonance if we don't search it, I'm afraid. And if someone qualifies dual-resonance as marketing BS, it might paradoxically help DiMarzio by leaving one of their secrets untouched...

.Patents are abstracts, and worded the way they are to be legally factual without being factual in absolute practice. i think relying solely on the patents wording as a 100% representation is fairly unreliable.

That's exactly what I was about to write. Most patents are simply impossible to change in a concrete product if the reader hasn't a solid knowledge and substantial technical possibilities. The Ilitch air coil is another good example of that.
And what I say is true only when the patent number is correct: let's remember the N° 2,737,842, supposed to protect Seth Lover's design and actually referring to Les Paul's trapeze tailpiece. As a wevsite says: "Perhaps this was a research roadblock for the competition". Many patents are obviously filed as such.

FOOTNOTE FOR OTHER READERS - It's Sunday morning here . I'm not at home nor in our lab at school so I still can't post excerpts of my tests. Maybe later, if I feel it possible. I mean: if I don't see coming an endless argument supposed to prove me wrong... while I've not enough free time and absolutely zero desire to trade sharing for endless sterile disagreements (a special thought here for Andrew a.k.a. Anti ***).

Merry Xmas to all of you!

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

. Yeah but if we consider an unloaded scenario, with two coils in series the total winding capacitance of both coils would be lower in value than the smallest capacitance. So if we have one coil loaded with our artifically increased capacitance of .001uf, with the other coil left with a winding capacitance of say 100pf, the total combined capacitance across the series coils would still be slightly lower than 100pf, with the cable capacitance still behaving as the dominant factor when loaded. It has to then be a phase shift produced between both coils that is primarily responsible for secondary resonance peak, otherwise you would be stuck in the same scenario, and they would just combine as a singular even if you artifically loaded one coil with extra capacitance. I remember reading somewhere that DiMarzio themselves never claimed the effect was drastic in most of the pickups that brandished the patent ..

You're right that the phase difference leads to two resonances given diverging capacitances, but we have to back up a bit... DiMarzio's dual resonance patent does nothing to assure that you get a significant disparity of capacitance. Using difference gauges of wire is not an effective means of assuring you get a disparate capacitance. Any company could come along and better the "technology" by simply using the same gauge of wire - with an actual capacitor. And that's exactly what Gibson did. The fact that we're talking about DiMarzio's "dual resonance", while Gibson's technically correct innovation is all but forgotten, speak volumes to the marketing factor at work.

Gibson used 10nF because it made a difference in tone that is readily noticeable. 1nF is reaching the edge of what you can even hear in the treble response, as I've tried this mod myself. In fact, I have a Les Paul wired with this mod right now. At 100pF, the most optimist difference you can hope to achieve by merely swapping wire gauges, is not going to be audible at all. The fact that Gibson's mod appeared to be disliked by commentators on the internet speaks to a bigger truth: guitarists say they want something different, but they don't really want anything different. If DiMarzio had simply patented putting a 10nF cap across a coil (supposing such a patent would be granted) guitarists would probably reject it for the fact that it actually changed the tone of their guitars.

BTW, a Gibson Veritone has a similar "scoop" effect to this mod we're discussing; there is an 1.5H inductor in the Veritone that servers as the "second coil" , and a variety of caps from 1nF to 0.22uF allowing a guitarist to get their dual resonance is a variety of flavors, and there again, the "scooped" tone that dual resonance produces is just not very popular with guitarists.

Patents are abstracts, and worded the way they are to be legally factual without being factual in absolute practice. i think relying solely on the patents wording as a 100% representation is fairly unreliable seeing most of what is outlined is still covered with in it, and that includes the use of two separate wire gauges on each coil. So long as it’s in there it’s somewhat protected as stated, and nobody is going to want to defend themselves in court from a sue happy company with resources like DiMarzio. Mesa is guilty of the same thing.

DiMarzio follows the patent fairly faithfully, though. Take their Humbucker from Hell, it follows the letter of the patent, using a smaller gauge wire for one of the coils, but the inductance of both coils is substantially similar, like only a few millihenries apart.

Regarding the Steve’s special anecdotally I can say that it’s not scooped in the same way a custom 5 or a paf is. I could also say it does sound somewhat different depending on how it’s orientated. From a construction perspective and taking into account a first approximation circuit analysis, it probably shouldn’t exist or sound the way it does in other words. Until I’m willing to spend more time analyzing it or dissecting it, or somebody else wants to, it will have to remain a mystery.

In the case of comparing a pickup's tone when flipped, there's a fair amount of time that passes between orientations. You're certainly not stomping on an A/B switch, carefully listening for a difference, as you might when comparing fuzz boxes. To make matters worse, in the case of pickups, is people will change them around and not even take care to make sure they reinstalled them at the same height. People know pickup height it a significant factor, but then will pretend it doesn't matter because they don't want to pull out a caliper and make sure it was set exactly how it was. Similarly, people say the guitar makes a big difference, but won't hesitate to compare and contrast pickups they had heard in different guitars. So the assumption out there is "I heard something different, I'll leave it to science nerds to tell me why", but the reality is that we don't know that anything different was actually heard. From an empirical standpoint, it's astonishingly lazy, but so many guitarists do that it's just the present day normal.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

In the case of comparing a pickup's tone when flipped, there's a fair amount of time that passes between orientations. You're certainly not stomping on an A/B switch, carefully listening for a difference, as you might when comparing fuzz boxes. To make matters worse, in the case of pickups, is people will change them around and not even take care to make sure they reinstalled them at the same height. People know pickup height it a significant factor, but then will pretend it doesn't matter because they don't want to pull out a caliper and make sure it was set exactly how it was. Similarly, people say the guitar makes a big difference, but won't hesitate to compare and contrast pickups they had heard in different guitars. So the assumption out there is "I heard something different, I'll leave it to science nerds to tell me why", but the reality is that we don't know that anything different was actually heard. From an empirical standpoint, it's astonishingly lazy, but so many guitarists do that it's just the present day normal.

Funny thing is that I use this same argument all the time. Forget about dual resonance, Now I’m starting to question whether I have a dual personality

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

And that's what tests suggest too.

Anyway, it's difficult to know which DiMarzio products the patent covers concretely...

Example: the P90 sized DiMarzio DLX + has a coil measuring more than twice the DCR of the other (out of my head: 5.35k on one hand, 12.1k on the other hand)... But both coils have the same inductance @ 120hz... and the difference of resonance between them is fairly subtle. Dual-resonance or not? The DLX is not listed as such, if memory serves me.

If I take another DiMarzio model that I've tested and which is patented as dual-resonance... what did I find? Less than 1k of difference... Almost strictly the same inductance... but a stronger double resonant peak than with the DLX.

DiMarzio won't let us know what is exactly dual-resonance if we don't search it, I'm afraid. And if someone qualifies dual-resonance as marketing BS, it might paradoxically help DiMarzio by leaving one of their secrets untouched...

I think one of the hidden “secrets” to the dual resonance idea is that it relies on where each of the coils sense the string vibration, and as such is why their stacked models aren’t not covered by the patent even though there are huge disparities between the gauges of wire between the coils. The other is that in some of their models that essentially use the secondary stacked coil as dummy to more or less solely reduce noise, like their heavy blues single etc... the dummy coil would not produce a useful resonance frequncy even loaded.

So my thought is that dimarzio is well aware of how their technology does or doesn’t work, and what models fall under which patent. So I doubt any of it is oversight.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

I think one of the hidden “secrets” to the dual resonance idea is that it relies on where each of the coils sense the string vibration

The same thought came to my mind. More later, maybe.


Regarding the question of dual personality that you mentioned… This discussion about dual-resonance seems to bring it in multiple ways. )

Another example of that is the duality of theory vs reality illustrated by Varitones.

The original Gibson schematic mentions a “1.5H” inductor; it seems to be a typical example of supposed “error” potentially done purposedly to mislead plagiarists.

Let’s compare it to the real thing: http://www.12fret.com/wp-content/ga...d-1960-cherry-dt-cons-varitone-inductor-1.jpg

http://www.offsetguitars.com/personal/sookwinder/casino/harness.jpg

Does the GA 90 inductor look like a small 1.5H Mouser transformer ?

Real Varitones include inductors of a MUCH higher value than the 1.5H evoked by Gibson (and IME, they generate perfectly playable “dual resonances”, BTW: after all, BB King was said to love the 2d position of his Varitone, if memory serves me).

That's the kind of things that I had in my mind when I've described above "official" docs (like patents) as being potentially unusable directly, for being incomplete or erroneous on purpose.

FWIW.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

I think one of the hidden “secrets” to the dual resonance idea is that it relies on where each of the coils sense the string vibration, and as such is why their stacked models aren’t not covered by the patent even though there are huge disparities between the gauges of wire between the coils. The other is that in some of their models that essentially use the secondary stacked coil as dummy to more or less solely reduce noise, like their heavy blues single etc... the dummy coil would not produce a useful resonance frequncy even loaded.

So my thought is that dimarzio is well aware of how their technology does or doesn’t work, and what models fall under which patent. So I doubt any of it is oversight.

See what you're doing? Assuming you've heard something different from what you heard with other pickups, despite the lack of a true A/B test to overcome any biases or preconception, and then assuming upon an assumption that the difference owes to this "dual resonance", and not something else. The fact that you are so sure the technology does something means that it's purpose has been served, even if the patented technology actually does nothing. It's marketing value is self evident. I'm also sure there's an unwillingness to accept the idea that maybe we've been suckered in by something. You see the same thing with people who've been scammed; it takes a little time for the reality to sink in.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

The same thought came to my mind. More later, maybe.


Regarding the question of dual personality that you mentioned… This discussion about dual-resonance seems to bring it in multiple ways. )

Another example of that is the duality of theory vs reality illustrated by Varitones.

The original Gibson schematic mentions a “1.5H” inductor; it seems to be a typical example of supposed “error” potentially done purposedly to mislead plagiarists.

Let’s compare it to the real thing: http://www.12fret.com/wp-content/ga...d-1960-cherry-dt-cons-varitone-inductor-1.jpg

http://www.offsetguitars.com/personal/sookwinder/casino/harness.jpg

Does the GA 90 inductor look like a small 1.5H Mouser transformer ?

Real Varitones include inductors of a MUCH higher value than the 1.5H evoked by Gibson (and IME, they generate perfectly playable “dual resonances”, BTW: after all, BB King was said to love the 2d position of his Varitone, if memory serves me).

That's the kind of things that I had in my mind when I've described above "official" docs (like patents) as being potentially unusable directly, for being incomplete or erroneous on purpose.

FWIW.

If someone wanted to "plagiarize" a Veratone for financial gain, they'd certainly just buy one, take it apart, and get the values that way.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

See what you're doing? Assuming you've heard something different from what you heard with other pickups, despite the lack of a true A/B test to overcome any biases or preconception, and then assuming upon an assumption that the difference owes to this "dual resonance", and not something else. The fact that you are so sure the technology does something means that it's purpose has been served, even if the patented technology actually does nothing. It's marketing value is self evident. I'm also sure there's an unwillingness to accept the idea that maybe we've been suckered in by something. You see the same thing with people who've been scammed; it takes a little time for the reality to sink in.

Actually makes no difference to me either way. I sound the same no matter what I play through. I have nothing invested, nor did I pay a premium for the technology. I don’t work for the company and actually paid less for a pickup covered under the 4501 patent than I did a plain Jane common JB, so cost certainly isn’t a part of it. I’m not under the opinion the pickup is even anywhere close to the most profound tone shaping tool in the typical signal chain, so there goes that. Us amplifier people feel we are the true manipulators in this game. The assumption that DiMarzio views that it is indeed a secondary resonance peak itself falling in a an audibly useful range that is the true object is also flawed. The wording DiMarzio uses at times indicates that the true focus of this is on more pronounced higher order harmonic generation/retention than it really is about having an audibly apparent secondary resonance.

There’s no real way I know of to reliably a/b it since by the nature of what we are comparing, there is no direct comparison, and a lot of room for human interjection. On the other hand a sim only offers a very limited snap shot, and may not show the true transfer characteristics in reality because there are certain aspects of an electric guitar pickup that cannot be captured easily. So again we are stuck with an abstract.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

The wording DiMarzio uses at times indicates that the true focus of this is on more pronounced higher order harmonic generation/retention than it really is about having an audibly apparent secondary resonance.

That's precisely how I would describe the benefits of achieving a higher resonant peak in general. How would this goal be distinct from merely extending the resonant peak frequency, or the resonant Q factor?

 

[freefrog]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

If someone wanted to "plagiarize" a Veratone for financial gain, they'd certainly just buy one, take it apart, and get the values that way.

If reality was logical, maybe. But that's not what happened : many of the unofficial "Varitones" sold online rely on the schematic and include a 1.5H inductor (reason why they don't sound like the original circuit and have contributed to ruin its reputation). And the error in the Gibson schematic is often quoted as a true spec... That's why I've shared what I had discovered about that (for Xmas - but I won't publish the real inductance of vintage Gibson circuits right now: people can PM me about this side question if necessary).

 

[freefrog]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

The wording DiMarzio uses at times indicates that the true focus of this is on more pronounced higher order harmonic generation/retention than it really is about having an audibly apparent secondary resonance.

My experience agrees and I’ll post just an excerpt of it.

Below is a pic transposing the dual-resonance of a DiMarzio Tone Zone.

Plain red and black lines = resonant peaks of the two coils [EDIT: obviously, the pickup was associated with 500k vol & tone pots, and plugged through a typical guitar cable; it would have been meaningless to test it in another way in this case.]

Dotted red and black lines = their phase response.

Orange hazy line = cumulative response of the pickup in bridge position when the test guitar hosting it is played from unfretted low E to high E, 22th fret, plugged direct to the board through a 1M input.

The comb filtering theorized by Donald Tilman + the dual-resonance of the pickup appear to shape its harmonic spectrum: see how the frequency response of the played guitar follows the curves due to electro-stimulation, after an expected gap between fundamental and harmonics due to the position of the pickup comparatively to the bridge.

In this case, dual-resonance causes a dip followed by a subtle hump in the higher harmonics. The goal is apparently to keep a bit of sparkle between 5 and 10k in order to increase the harmonic richness of a high inductance pickup, but also to cut the treble content in a “stairway” fashion @ these two successive frequencies in order to avoid “fizz”. [EDIT: of course, we have checked here that such a thing doesn"t happen when a pickup has no dual-resonance. It would be naive to post this test as meaningful otherwise. See the other post below if necessary.]

My temporary conclusion: between arrogance and tendency to dictate its rules to the whole World, DiMarzio corp. give many reasons to be disliked… but the idea that dual-resonance = BS is not one of them, IMHO.

There’s no real way I know of to reliably a/b it since by the nature of what we are comparing, there is no direct comparison, and a lot of room for human interjection. On the other hand a sim only offers a very limited snap shot, and may not show the true transfer characteristics in reality because there are certain aspects of an electric guitar pickup that cannot be captured easily. So again we are stuck with an abstract.

Please, note that albeit a bit more concrete, this post doesn’t claim to picture ALL the tonal features of the HB tested: my screenshot says nothing about loudness and time domain, for example. I’ve focused on the dual-resonance making so much buzz above.

FWIW.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

2d PIC below for comparison.

It involves a prototype humbucker of mine - tested in the same bridge position of the same test guitar, with strictly the same settings and gear than above (strings included: the experimental axe used can be back loaded through a hole in the body, next the bridge).

It also creates a dual peak, but much higher in the spectrum and for different reasons [EDIT: IOW, it can be considered as an almost "normal" HB. If I've selected it instead of a totally standard pickup, it's for its nice little peak @ 15khz, in the Rz as in the played track, because it gives a picture richer of meanings.]
The secondary peak above 15khz can be seen in the spectrum when it’s played, but is too high pitched to be annoying through a typical guitar amp.

It wouldn’t be the case below 12khz, where dual resonance can generate unpleasing drone effects unless a very dark cab is used - as it’s the case with DiMarzio 36th‘s, for example: whether they are listed in dual-resonance products or not, 36th‘s produce a secondary peak giving to comb filtered harmonics a glassy artificial character in neck position. Reason why their direct comparison to real vintage Gibson PU’s through any reasonably wide range loudspeaker gives the same feeling than aspartame compared to cane sugar IMHO. I don’t see how people hearing them could conclude that it makes “no difference”.

Sorry, I don’t plan to post tests about the 36th’s for the moment. As always, my contribution will remain limited to these slices of archives and thoughts, translating my respect for this topic and its tittle (since I've pictured the response of mismatched humbuckers instead of rambling off topic).

It's the only solution really adapted IMHO to the communicational context (and to my limited free time).

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

My experience agrees and I’ll post just an excerpt of it.

Below is a pic transposing the dual-resonance of a DiMarzio Tone Zone.

Plain red and black lines = resonant peaks of the two coils.

Dotted red and black lines = their phase response.

Orange hazy line = cumulative response of the pickup in bridge position when the test guitar hosting it is played from unfretted low E to high E, 22th fret, plugged direct to the board through a 1M input.

The comb filtering theorized by Donald Tilman + the dual-resonance of the pickup appear to shape its harmonic spectrum: see how the frequency response of the played guitar follows the curves due to electro-stimulation, after an expected gap between fundamental and harmonics due to the position of the pickup comparatively to the bridge.

In this case, dual-resonance causes a dip followed by a subtle hump in the higher harmonics. The goal is apparently to keep a bit of sparkle between 5 and 10k in order to increase the harmonic richness of a high inductance pickup, but also to cut the treble content in a “stairway” fashion @ these two successive frequencies in order to avoid “fizz”.

My temporary conclusion: between arrogance and tendency to dictate its rules to the whole World, DiMarzio corp. give many reasons to be disliked… but the idea that dual-resonance = BS is not one of them, IMHO.




Please, note that albeit a bit more concrete, this post doesn’t claim to picture ALL the tonal features of the HB tested: my screenshot says nothing about loudness and time domain, for example. I’ve focused on the dual-resonance making so much buzz above.

FWIW.

View attachment 85624

You're not seeing the fruits of dual resonance here. At the very least, you'd need to run the same test with a humbucker that you're sure does not exhibit "dual resonance" and ensure that you see no such pattern with it. Keep in mind that the higher harmonic excitation above 1kHz only lasts briefly in the milliseconds after the transient, while most of the decay harmonic content is below 1kHz. This, incidentally, has a lot to do with the perception that "hot" pickups sustain for longer; higher decay amplitude for a comparatively low transient amplitude. The higher transient harmonic content is also heavily influence by both pickup position and where you pluck the guitar string, so all in all, direct string excitation is not a good input signal from which to analyze a pickup's resonance. A direct frequency sweep would make things a lot more plain to see.

Another explanation for dual peaks in the context of this testing is that, due to the law of induction, 6dB per octave slope that is inherent the output of a guitar pickup, which is where the long, initial incline comes from, and then eddy currents will cause that slope to peak, then dip down as the eddy current losses become stronger with frequency. That point where eddy currents overtake the 6dB oct slope constitutes one peak, then, at an even higher frequency you hit the LC resonance of the pickup, so the voltage spikes up again, there's your second peak. Since your test case above uses a 1meg input, this is essentially a "no load" situation, so it's probable that you're seeing a very high resonance (one and only resonance) , where as a loaded scenario with a tone and vol pot would reduce the resonance to such a point that you'd like not see it all all in a test involving string excitation. This is one cases where your hearing is more elucidating than a visual aid.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

You're not seeing the fruits of dual resonance here. At the very least, you'd need to run the same test with a humbucker that you're sure does not exhibit "dual resonance" and ensure that you see no such pattern with it. Keep in mind that the higher harmonic excitation above 1kHz only lasts briefly in the milliseconds after the transient, while most of the decay harmonic content is below 1kHz. This, incidentally, has a lot to do with the perception that "hot" pickups sustain for longer; higher decay amplitude for a comparatively low transient amplitude. The higher transient harmonic content is also heavily influence by both pickup position and where you pluck the guitar string, so all in all, direct string excitation is not a good input signal from which to analyze a pickup's resonance. A direct frequency sweep would make things a lot more plain to see.

Another explanation for dual peaks in the context of this testing is that, due to the law of induction, 6dB per octave slope that is inherent the output of a guitar pickup, which is where the long, initial incline comes from, and then eddy currents will cause that slope to peak, then dip down as the eddy current losses become stronger with frequency. That point where eddy currents overtake the 6dB oct slope constitutes one peak, then, at an even higher frequency you hit the LC resonance of the pickup, so the voltage spikes up again, there's your second peak. Since your test case above uses a 1meg input, this is essentially a "no load" situation, so it's probable that you're seeing a very high resonance (one and only resonance) , where as a loaded scenario with a tone and vol pot would reduce the resonance to such a point that you'd like not see it all all in a test involving string excitation. This is one cases where your hearing is more elucidating than a visual aid.

No.

ALL the tests done here with dual-resonance DiMarzio's show the same kind of matching responses. Even with pickups in neck position (once the associated comb filtering took in account, of course). Even when a different testing rig or methodology is involved. This one has been selected just because it was more immediately "readable" in this context than others - albeit not yet readable enough apparently, since I had to edit the first message.

These tests have OF COURSE been compared to (many) other tests done on other pickups without dual-resonance. There's no need to post any of them, since the 2d pic above is already there to put dual-resonance in perspective.

But keep disagreeing if it makes you happy, that's fine.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

No.

ALL the tests done here with dual-resonance DiMarzio's show the same kind of matching responses. Even with pickups in neck position (once the associated comb filtering took in account, of course). Even when a different testing rig or methodology is involved. This one has been selected just because it was more immediately "readable" in this context than others - albeit not yet readable enough apparently, since I had to edit the first message.

These tests have OF COURSE been compared to (many) other tests done on other pickups without dual-resonance. There's no need to post any of them, since the 2d pic above is already there to put dual-resonance in perspective.

But keep disagreeing if it makes you happy, that's fine.

You didn't address any of my points. Your input signal is not suitable for response analysis, and it concerns me that you'd don't seem to understand why that is important. Look at any speaker spec sheet, see what they use. You did not provide a "normal" humbucker test for comparison, and it concerns me that you don't immediately appreciate the need for one. You basically have a plot with two humps in it, and you're misattributing these two humps to fit the narrative you want to believe.

Even with these concerns not addressed, I know your plot doesn't show dual resonance because it's literally impossible for two strong peaks to arise, under load, from doing nothing more than using 42 AWG on one bobbin, and 43 AWG on the other.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

You didn't address any of my points. Your input signal is not suitable for response analysis, and it concerns me that you'd don't seem to understand why that is important. Look at any speaker spec sheet, see what they use. You did not provide a "normal" humbucker test for comparison, and it concerns me that you don't immediately appreciate the need for one. You basically have a plot with two humps in it, and you're misattributing these two humps to fit the narrative you want to believe.

Even with these concerns not addressed, I know your plot doesn't show dual resonance because it's literally impossible for two strong peaks to arise, under load, from doing nothing more than using 42 AWG on one bobbin, and 43 AWG on the other.

He did mention it was under load. the pickup itself was loaded by what you would expect in a typical guitar, and loaded again with 1M on the other side of the cable which is what you would expect the input impedance would be to any typical amplifier.

He also did include a comparison using another "non" dual resonance humbucker underneath his tone zone example.

I am officially tapping out of this convo.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

He also did include a comparison using another "non" dual resonance humbucker underneath his tone zone example.

The second "non dual resonance" graph shows the same double peak, for which he says "It also creates a dual peak, but much higher in the spectrum and for different reasons" , so if it's not dual resonance, why does it show the same double peak? It's very convoluted.

You can't just take a plot that loosely resembles your claim and expect that by itself to prove anything. It's like saying your deity must be real because you saw his face in a piece of toast. I could do the same thing:

Look! Three peaks, if not more! This somehow proves a Jensen P12Q has triple resonance, right?

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Does anyone make a HB with mismatched coils....

This is how you get true dual resonance, this is the Gibson tuned coil tap.

Regular series humbucker:

Same humbucker with a 10n cap across one of the coils:

As can be seen in the simulation, you get two points of maximum impedance, and interestingly enough a minimum impedance in between them. As stated above, this is the same sort of response you get with a Veritone circuit.

So what happens when you use a different wire gauge. At best, you get an asymmetry of capacitance per coil. What happens when you give the coils different capacitances?

Absolutely nothing.