Double Cream issue

[chill]

Re: Double Cream issue

More likely the cash. How much extra is Seymour or anyone else going to make on double cream pickups? Probably not as much as the lawsuit would cost even if you won:laugh2:

...unless Seymour had a pro bono lawyer,

What about calling the pickup "off white" or "beige"? Would that get around the issue?

What about a functional color, e.g. a cream colored bobbin which is colored such that no dye is used? Would that get around the issue?

 

[JeffB]

Re: Double Cream issue

DiMarzio also has the phrase "PAF" in a name locked under a patten, which makes no sense, becuase they dont specialize in vintage style pickups and the ones tht they make are crap.

I disagree...Air Classic. PAF. PAF classic, and VPAFs are far from crap, IME.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Double Cream issue

Carvin markets 22 pole double cream humbuckers...so it must not be just the double cream or color that DiMarzio has registered as a trademark. Must be double cream with six polepieces in each coil or something. Lew

 

[ErikH]

Re: Double Cream issue

DiMarzio also has the phrase "PAF" in a name locked under a patten, which makes no sense, becuase they dont specialize in vintage style pickups and the ones tht they make are crap.

I'm also in disagreement here. I have the PAF and have had it in 3 different guitars. It shines in all 3. Their vintage PAF's are a lot closer to actual than they're given credit for.

And a +1 that this issue has been questioned and beaten to death. Search the forum archives and look at the patent/trademark office for all the details.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Double Cream issue

Carvin markets 22 pole double cream humbuckers...so it must not be just the double cream or color that DiMarzio has registered as a trademark. Must be double cream with six polepieces in each coil or something. Lew

They license from DiMarzio as I understand it.....

Duncan or Gibson or whomever could too. If they wanted to pay for it.

I find it funny that so many people have a fit that companies try to protect themselves/product identity...DiMarzio does this with double cremes. People bash gibson for protecting their Les Paul design (i.e the clones, and then PRS lawsuit). Or Fender with the strat headstock.

If you one of you folks went out and built a superduper amp that became a big seller and made your living creating them, you wouldn't want every backyard amp tech copying it , would you? No. You'd try to protect your creation. Now granted Larry didnt invent doublecremes, but his product identity was there...people saw double cremes and thought DiMarzio. IThe "vintage correct " market wasnt there like it is now. Gibson didn't care at the time, so Larry went in to protect that identity that had become his (so to speak).

Also at the same time, I cannot imagine that the lack of double cremes REALLY hurts Duncan or anyone else in the grand financial scheme of things. If double cremes were such a big seller, then Duncan/Gibson could license, and still reap some profit, no?

 

[Curly]

Re: Double Cream issue

AFAIK, DMZ actually rarely produces any double cremes these days

though I've read some of the details of the trademark, I don't really remember them, or care to

I think the gist, for people who are fairly knowledgeable about the history of guitar manufacturing, is that the patent is held by someone who neither invented, nor first used the patent item.

It's possible to be legally in the right, and ethically in the wrong.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Double Cream issue

It's possible to be legally in the right, and ethically in the wrong.

Gee....you think so??? :chairfall

Lew

 

[chill]

Re: Double Cream issue

I find it funny that so many people have a fit that companies try to protect themselves/product identity...DiMarzio does this with double cremes.

What if Ford had trademarked black cars and I wanted a black Honda? Protecting a color is a bit odd. Protecting other things which are actually distinctive are another matter and should be protected, like Gibson's LP shape or Fender's headstock shape. Protecting the gold top, the tobacco burst, the cherry burst (or black or olympic white for that matter) goes too far in my opinion.

 

[chill]

Re: Double Cream issue

Goods and Services IC 015. US 036. G & S: Electronic Sound Pickup for Guitars. FIRST USE: 19740200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19740200
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 22.01.25 - Batons, orchestra conductor's; Bows, violin; Conductor's wands, batons; Drumsticks (musical instrument); Harmonicas; Instrument cases (musical); Music stands; Picks, guitar; Wands, conductors' and magicians'
26.11.27 - Oblongs
Serial Number 73150505
Filing Date December 1, 1977
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition June 23, 1981
Registration Number 1169205
Registration Date September 15, 1981
Owner (REGISTRANT) DiMarzio Musical Instrument Pickups, Inc. CORPORATION NEW YORK 643 Bay St. Staten Island NEW YORK 10304
(LAST LISTED OWNER) DIMARZIO, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT NEW YORK 1338 RICHMOND TERRACE PO BOX 100387 STATEN ISLAND NEW YORK 10310

Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Description of Mark The mark comprises the double design representation of an electronic sound pickup for guitars, which is disclaimed apart from the mark as shown. AND IS LINED FOR THE COLOR YELLOW WHICH RESEMBLES THE DISTINCTIVE SHADE OF CREAM.
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010928.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20010928
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

There's an image up at the top which shows a humbucker with hatching on the coils.

 

[JacksonMIA]

Re: Double Cream issue

It's possible to be legally in the right, and ethically in the wrong.

That's where I have a problem with them. They have a couple of pickups I'd like to try, but....

 

[JeffB]

Re: Double Cream issue

What if Ford had trademarked black cars and I wanted a black Honda? .

Seriously..I'd say to you "Oh well..Life's not fair, get over it".

I'd buy the car I want and pick from whatever colors are available for that model. I'd never have color as something very high on my priority list in the first place.

I never get worked up about "things"...whether the colors of a car, or its boycotting pup companies cos they have something else Duncan doesn't (but could if they choose to..i.e. licensing)..lifes too short for me to worry about crap like that.

 

[LJ King]

Re: Double Cream issue

Just want to say that Gibson did use double black and double creme bobbins on their original "Dirty Fingers" pickup. That was around 1979-80. These pickups did not have covers and used adjustable pole pieces on both bobbins.

The reissue Dirty Fingers seem to only be available in black.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Double Cream issue

I have a hard time with the "Aesthetic" trademark. Trademarking the bicycle is one thing. Trademarking red bicycles is just dumb. # of wraps/output/even name etc...that defines a tone - great: No one but DiMarzio should be allowed to make superdistortions (With that wire/wrap/mag etc...) If LArry is cool guy, he sign on here and tell world it's ok. i'll believe him when I see him. Business is business and 10 bucks is 10 bucks.

And yes Lew -it is very possible to be legal but unethical. Systems of Law and ethics often run afoul of each other.

 

[jdm61]

Re: Double Cream issue

They license from DiMarzio as I understand it.....

Duncan or Gibson or whomever could too. If they wanted to pay for it.

I find it funny that so many people have a fit that companies try to protect themselves/product identity...DiMarzio does this with double cremes. People bash gibson for protecting their Les Paul design (i.e the clones, and then PRS lawsuit). Or Fender with the strat headstock.

If you one of you folks went out and built a superduper amp that became a big seller and made your living creating them, you wouldn't want every backyard amp tech copying it , would you? No. You'd try to protect your creation. Now granted Larry didnt invent doublecremes, but his product identity was there...people saw double cremes and thought DiMarzio. IThe "vintage correct " market wasnt there like it is now. Gibson didn't care at the time, so Larry went in to protect that identity that had become his (so to speak).

Also at the same time, I cannot imagine that the lack of double cremes REALLY hurts Duncan or anyone else in the grand financial scheme of things. If double cremes were such a big seller, then Duncan/Gibson could license, and still reap some profit, no?

My objection is that they were able to aquire protection for something they didn't invent or improve upon for that matter.