Double magnet experiment

[vinnie1971]

I have seen a couple of threads in other forums where it has been declared that you cannot put 2 alnico magnets in a humbucker to boost its output or improve tone as will sound rubbish especially if you put them in to attract each other as they will cancel each other. That part I think is true and didn't bother trying but put them in to repel each other so they both run north to south side by side - I was convinced it can be done.

So I thought I'd test that theory...

Using my Maxon pickups that were housing alnico 8 - standard size giving similar if not more volume than the original double sized magnet I thought why not mix alnico magnets to see what would happen.

The pickups are strange. With Alnico 2 or 4 the output is quite low. Much more quiet than APH 1 or 498t/490r . DCR IS 7.9 neck 8.2k bridge.

The have have 14mm hex poles meretricious M5 not fillisters) which I replaced for 18mm as there's room before hitting base plate.

Now I liked the Alnico 8 but a bit scooped in this guitar with a lot of treble. Any other magnets result in lots of treble with not a lot of bass.

So I tried alnico 2 and 4 stacked to repel each other in the neck and alnico 2 and alnico 5 stacked to repel in the bridge ( with overall magnetic polarity set up so my coil splits are hum cancelling) .

I actually though it was young to sound terrible and mushy but actually they sound really decent. I guess the short poles and low to moderate wind are designed for huge string magnets - and I figured that if I put A2 and A5 together it would sound like A4 only with more power and similar for the neck I wanted between A2 and A4. And that's what I got, only louder.

So that's a myth debunked. It can be done and can sound good.

I may have to do some recording as a proof ....




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[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Two magnets is fine. Several popular designs have 1/4" bars, which is effectively the same as two 1/8" bars stacked. It is very important that they not attract, or they will defeat each other. You have to clamp them in there as they're trying to repel.

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Two magnets is fine. Several popular designs have 1/4" bars, which is effectively the same as two 1/8" bars stacked. It is very important that they not attract, or they will defeat each other. You have to clamp them in there as they're trying to repel.

That's what I figured. There was a metric equivalent of a 1/4 inch ceramic and now there's 2 X 1/8 inch alnico mags, and they sound so good.


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[LtKojak]

Re: Double magnet experiment

snip

Vinnie, if you like the outcome, then it's ok. However, depending on what Alnico grade you use, they'll alter the tone with time. Some might take years, others may take months, as they're permanently max-degaussing each other, at a much faster rate than in P90s, due to the lack of an air gap between bars.

If you've gotten two demagnitized bars and super-glue'em together, then zap-charge the block, they wont' repel each other, so they'll keep the tone footprint through time.

Anyway, depending on what the tonal goal is, there are other much more efficient/elegant/cheaper ways of using magnets in a humbucking p'up than stacking already magnetized bars. One is juxtaposing two half-bars, so the screw bobbin is say fed by an A2 and the slug bobbin is fed by an say, A2. This way you get a different tone than using any other alnico grades without any of the self-degaussing issue.

To be clear, it was no myth to be debunked to start with; just a lot of misinformation and/or misinterpretation of facts on the Internet, including your own.

Yours very truly,

 

[Mincer]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Yeah, I would think it would be easier to use a double thick magnet....they wouldn't need to be recharged. I wonder how long your experiment will sound good, or if it will degrade over time. I have to admit, I haven't done or studied experiments like this, so I would be interested to know what happens.

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Yeah, I would think it would be easier to use a double thick magnet....they wouldn't need to be recharged. I wonder how long your experiment will sound good, or if it will degrade over time. I have to admit, I haven't done or studied experiments like this, so I would be interested to know what happens.

I would use a double thick magnet if I could source them in the UK. That's how I ended up down this route. Previously I had A8 mags held in place with maple spacer of the same thickness - while I like it, in this particular pickup there's a little scooping of tone that I don't like so much.

I like the tones better than A8. I am curious to see if they will degrade. I did some recording and the sound wave shows confirms my ears, its louder than 1/4 inch ceramic but not quite as loud as 1/8 inch A8.

What it has allowed though is to get those in between EQ profiles I was hoping to get. So in the bridge warmer than A5 but still a tight bass with flatter ( less scooped ) EQ across the mids and for the neck warm top end - pronounced upper mids and tighter but still slightly spongy bass.

Can only seem to get standard size mags in the UK. If there was something half the width of an standard mag but twice the thickness that would be better than what I am doing.


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[vinnie1971]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Vinnie, if you like the outcome, then it's ok. However, depending on what Alnico grade you use, they'll alter the tone with time. Some might take years, others may take months, as they're permanently max-degaussing each other, at a much faster rate than in P90s, due to the lack of an air gap between bars.

If you've gotten two demagnitized bars and super-glue'em together, then zap-charge the block, they wont' repel each other, so they'll keep the tone footprint through time.

Anyway, depending on what the tonal goal is, there are other much more efficient/elegant/cheaper ways of using magnets in a humbucking p'up than stacking already magnetized bars. One is juxtaposing two half-bars, so the screw bobbin is say fed by an A2 and the slug bobbin is fed by an say, A2. This way you get a different tone than using any other alnico grades without any of the self-degaussing issue.

To be clear, it was no myth to be debunked to start with; just a lot of misinformation and/or misinterpretation of facts on the Internet, including your own.

Yours very truly,

Ok, not a myth but lots of people claim it to be true.

I would have done it the way you suggested above but I am constrained by this pickup design that uses 2 screw coils but instead of fillisters it uses hardened M5 (yes metric) hex poles 14mm long. I have replaced them with 16 mm to get a little extra bottom end which was lacking. But because they are M5 they do not protrude through the baseplate, the whole thing is designed to be screwed together round a 1/4 inch magnet, hence my early use of spacers then my " I wonder how 2 different Alnico magnets would sound..."
ideally I would like to use magnets that are half the width of a standard magnet but 1/4 inch thick to put side by side N to S to prevent the degaussing issue.
But I can't find those in the U.K.


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[hamerfan]

Re: Double magnet experiment

here are your double sized magnets in the uk

http://www.cermagmagnets.co.uk/alnico-bars-for-hb-double-width---62mm-x-65mm-x-125mm-39-p.asp

 

[vinnie1971]

Double magnet experiment

here are your double sized magnets in the uk

http://www.cermagmagnets.co.uk/alnico-bars-for-hb-double-width---62mm-x-65mm-x-125mm-39-p.asp

Yay!!!! Thanks that's fantastic !


Edit. Bummer - out of stock :-(


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[vinnie1971]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Experiment over. Sounded pretty good, but who knows how long before the magnets degauss.

So in the neck it's a polished alnico 8. It's pretty darned bright in there. The bridge is now sporting a roughcast alnico 8 - really bright but not as bright as when it had a polished alnico 8.

I think that's it. My favourite combo for these pickups.

I needed a maple spacer to fills the gap though but all taped up, I love how they sound now.

I did try 12mm M5 hex bolts with the theory that bringing the brass baseplate closer to the coils might soften the highs a little and I wouldn't need spacers anymore. but no, those shorter poles just made them sound shrill and lacking bottom end.




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[Davii]

Re: Double magnet experiment

I've not tried stacking, but have added side magnets before, though didn't find mixing to be of much use, especially when splitting the coils.

As someone has already mentioned, you can get most shapes/sizes from Cermag on this side of the pond

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Double magnet experiment

One time I tried an interesting mod on a cheap single coil. I replaced the polepieces on a strat bridge pickup with neodymium magnets and then put a neodymium bar across the bottom (they were an odd design to begin with). I've had it sitting around for about a year now because I've never found a guitar that I can drop them low enough to not grab onto the strings. But maybe one day...

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Double magnet experiment

I've not tried stacking, but have added side magnets before, though didn't find mixing to be of much use, especially when splitting the coils.

As someone has already mentioned, you can get most shapes/sizes from Cermag on this side of the pond

Stacking in the humbucker was useful and still good for split coils. The A5 and A2 for example were pretty close to an A8 in this guitar. I guess it depends on the pickup.

But as others suggested while it sounds good, I don't like the idea of them degaussing/ and the Cermag only list A5 when I checked and are out of stock so A8 it is


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[Davii]

Re: Double magnet experiment

Stacking in the humbucker was useful and still good for split coils. The A5 and A2 for example were pretty close to an A8 in this guitar. I guess it depends on the pickup.

But as others suggested while it sounds good, I don't like the idea of them degaussing/ and the Cermag only list A5 when I checked and are out of stock so A8 it is


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I was only using half size bars when I did the mix, so I guess they weren't up to the job individually when split. I'd avoided things on account of degaussing, and never understood the mixing of grades some do with P90s for the same reason.

I had the same thing with A5 and Cermag, and they just polished up a roughcast one for me when I queried availability. Corespondance with them can be a bit hit n' miss at times mind you!

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Double magnet experiment

I was only using half size bars when I did the mix, so I guess they weren't up to the job individually when split. I'd avoided things on account of degaussing, and never understood the mixing of grades some do with P90s for the same reason.

I had the same thing with A5 and Cermag, and they just polished up a roughcast one for me when I queried availability. Corespondance with them can be a bit hit n' miss at times mind you!

Not to worry, I am very pleased with the tone of A8 in the neck and roughcast A8 in the bridge. With the low wind and 14mm hex poles they sound like between a PAF and a 1970s moderately warm humbucker. Just means there's a spacer to fill the gap.


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