Dumble-ish question

[richard parker]

Reading a thread on another forum about the merits of Dumble amps. Many claim that given the exact same components, schematics etc you still won't build a replica because it's all down to the 'tuning' of the components.

I genuinely don't know what this means. How does one person 'tune' a bunch of electronic bits and pieces differently to someone else ? What is there to tune ?

 

[Chris of Arabia]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Short of measuring individual components one by one to establish how close they are to tolerance, I've no idea. Even then you'd need to try out variants in the circuit to see what if any difference they made.

 

[LReese]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Reading a thread on another forum about the merits of Dumble amps. Many claim that given the exact same components, schematics etc you still won't build a replica because it's all down to the 'tuning' of the components.

I genuinely don't know what this means. How does one person 'tune' a bunch of electronic bits and pieces differently to someone else ? What is there to tune ?

Never seen one up close - Actually I did see one a few weeks ago... In the hands of one Eric Clapton.

As I recall most were 'gooped', meaning the circuit components encased in epoxy. Don't remember how far the reverse-engineering went, but even back in the '90s I think Dumbles were too valuable to de-goop.

My simplest definition of tuning is substituting circuit components - could be as COA said or other simply trying different but compatible component values.

 

[zzmoore]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Howard Dumble, like Ken Fischer, typically built amps for clients.
He did not produce amp model ABC, and then build 300 of them all the same. Each amp, even if it is the same circuit, was voiced (tailored if you prefer) to suit a certain player.
Other than that.....you are getting into a bunch of Internet Amp B.S. that is not even worth thinking about.
If you and Howard have the same parts, and follow the same schematic.....Yes, the amps will sound the same/similar.
Now go play your guitar...

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Dumble-ish question

No 2 Dumbles are exactly the same...once HAD gets to know a player, their style, approach and gets familiar with the rest of their gear he builds them an amp...

If you get a schematic for a Dumble it is more often than not based on one or more actual amps.

All that said I think they are rather boring sounding amps, yes I've I've played through one, a real one not a clone and they are just a bunch of hype IMHO.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Dumble-ish question

I think the same thing happened with Dumble that happened with the Klon Centaur. They're both great pieces of gear that took on a mythical life of their own.

I like hearing Dumble amps when guys like Robben Ford play them, but to me it's not about how expensive they are, it's the fact that it isn't my favorite tone.......too fusiony for my taste. For what it's worth, when Robben can't use his Dumble rig, he asks for a 65 Twin Reissue then runs one of his Dumble-like pedals into it.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Just like with a Klon, the tone is in the goop.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Just like with a Klon, the tone is in the goop.

No wonder my farts sound so great.

 

[Bludave]

Dumble-ish question

Dumbles are great amps for sure but the concept of spending 20k+ for an amp is beyond me. That typed a few years ago I was looking for a new amp. I really wanted to buy the Marshall vintage modern but I just couldn't get the tone I wanted from it. Long story short is I wound up buying a used Komet 60. The amp has the most natural tone of any amp I have played through. It's a raw design with no Reverb or effects loop. I use. a Verbzilla, Ce2,DD3,and A hand made TS 808 with a few add features. IMHO I couldn't ask for a better sounding amp and it cost a whole lot less then a Dumble I have played through 2 Dumble overdrives but again I thought they sounded really good but they weren't 15k better then what I have noe

 

[aleclee]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Dumbles are a pretty heated topic that I'll let lie but I can speak a bit about tuning.

As many have already mentioned, Dumbles were built to spec with the amp's voicing and gain structure tailored to the player who ordered it. But that's just part of tuning a higher-gain hand wired amp.

In a hand-wired higher gain amp (like Dumble or Trainwreck), lead dress is much more than cosmetic. With the higher amplitude signals and higher gain comes increased crosstalk and spontaneous oscillation. That's one reason why you see few hand-wired amps with much more gain than a plexi. The builders don't want the brain damage of an amp being considered defective because a lead moved and caused oscillation.

That edge of instability state is a big part of what makes Trainwrecks cool and I suspect that Dumbles might have something similar going on. I suspect that it's also a factor in why clones don't necessarily live up to the real thing.

Thats not so say that hype isn't a big factor but it's not necessarily the only one.

 

[FAC]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Man...I frequent this forum so I don't have to read about Dumbles, the Politician tone, etc., etc....!!


(tongue in cheek...no offense meant to the OP...I just get tired of all the Dumble talk elsewhere...)

 

[richard parker]

Re: Dumble-ish question

The question wasn't really about Dumbles. What I'm asking is if you give 2 competent builders the same components and schematic could one amp sound better than the other because 1 guy is better at 'tuning' the components than the other ? Aleclee seems to think so, others don't. I have no idea hence the question.

 

[tone4days]

Re: Dumble-ish question

tuning a circuit comes from tailoring the interactions among component values in filter sections and gain sections ...

the answer is that no, you can't give the same components to two builders due to differences in tolerances ... so hand tuning uses the ear to make changes to the circuit to achieve desired output results under direct stimulus of the actual player's playing

 

[richard parker]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Okay, so if you gave one builder a bunch of components and a schematic and he builds an amp. You then take the amp apart and give the same components and schematic to another builder.

Will the amps sound different because the ears of the builders will lead them to different conclusions about how the amp should sound and this is reflected by their tailoring of interactions between component values ?

 

[zzmoore]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Okay, so if you gave one builder a bunch of components and a schematic and he builds an amp. You then take the amp apart and give the same components and schematic to another builder.

Will the amps sound different because the ears of the builders will lead them to different conclusions about how the amp should sound and this is reflected by their tailoring of interactions between component values ?

No.
You are WAY over-thinking this.
Unless ONE of the two builders did some real weird and stupid things, the amps will sound VERY similar.
If YOU paint a picture by numbers, and then your wife paints the SAME picture by numbers, with the same paints, do you think they will look any different.?
best

 

[tone4days]

Re: Dumble-ish question

Okay, so if you gave one builder a bunch of components and a schematic and he builds an amp. You then take the amp apart and give the same components and schematic to another builder.

Will the amps sound different because the ears of the builders will lead them to different conclusions about how the amp should sound and this is reflected by their tailoring of interactions between component values ?

your use of language remains intentionally incomplete so as to reveal that you are truly not interested in learning ... this will be my last response to you - I don't care if you learn or not .. I only respond in case some honest non-trolls are interested in learning

you have used the word 'builder', but then have reduced their role to mere "assembler of parts / follower of instructions" .. further, you continue to ignore the role of the interaction of the player with the amp ...

each segment of the amp's circuit can contain variable elements (e.g. potentiometers) that can be used to fine tune characteristics such as an EQ cut-off frequency and Q (pre or post gain) , a gain characteristic, a feedback characteristic, etc ... similarly, entire components (e.g. capacitors, etc.) can be swapped out to change a circuit characteristic .... these tweaks can tune a circuit to the players style (e.g. emphasizing or de-emphasizing transients of attack, sustain and decay of finger vibrato, etc) ... in short, if you continue to confuse assembling with tuning, you will not understand ... tuning involves intentionally changing component values to achieve performance from the circuit that is optimized for an individual players style

two players with sufficiently different playing styles will sound quite different playing an amp tuned for a third ... similarly, the same player playing different amps tuned differently will sound quite different one from the other

there is much hype and BS in boutique amps ... tuning is not part of the hype and BS

 

[richard parker]

Re: Dumble-ish question

your use of language remains intentionally incomplete so as to reveal that you are truly not interested in learning ... this will be my last response to you - I don't care if you learn or not .. I only respond in case some honest non-trolls are interested in learning

you have used the word 'builder', but then have reduced their role to mere "assembler of parts / follower of instructions" .. further, you continue to ignore the role of the interaction of the player with the amp ...

each segment of the amp's circuit can contain variable elements (e.g. potentiometers) that can be used to fine tune characteristics such as an EQ cut-off frequency and Q (pre or post gain) , a gain characteristic, a feedback characteristic, etc ... similarly, entire components (e.g. capacitors, etc.) can be swapped out to change a circuit characteristic .... these tweaks can tune a circuit to the players style (e.g. emphasizing or de-emphasizing transients of attack, sustain and decay of finger vibrato, etc) ... in short, if you continue to confuse assembling with tuning, you will not understand ... tuning involves intentionally changing component values to achieve performance from the circuit that is optimized for an individual players style

two players with sufficiently different playing styles will sound quite different playing an amp tuned for a third ... similarly, the same player playing different amps tuned differently will sound quite different one from the other

there is much hype and BS in boutique amps ... tuning is not part of the hype and BS

Well, thank you so much for condescending to reply one more time. I'm sure your wisdom is a valuable commodity that should be shared only sparingly with a mortal like myself. My posting is a genuine effort to understand but you think I'm a troll - well, that's your prerogative. I must say I admire your own unique 'tailoring' of written English. Your brave disregard of the convention of using capital letters at the beginning of sentences and full stops at the end leaves me dumbfounded with awe. Is this 'boutique' writing ?

 

[JeffB]

Re: Dumble-ish question

This thread is Dumb.....









le.............