Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

[Lightninsurfer]

Hello Everyone,
I have a Strat that I absolutely adore that's equipped with a set of Duncan SSL-1's. It has just the right amount of beef, thickness, punch and chime. I have another Strat with a set of Fender Custom Shop 69's, that while nice, aren't quite doing it for me. They're just too thin and weak for my tastes. I've considered just replacing them with another set of SSL-1's but I've been eyeing the Duncan Antiquity II Surf for Strat. I'm wondering if I'll get what I have with the SSL-1 set but just "more" of it due to the hand made nature of the pickup? I'm afraid that the Antiquity II's are really bright but I've also heard that the SSL-1 set is considered very bright but the seem just right. The SSL-1's are also great to gig with due to the punch and power. What can I expect going to a set of Antiquity II's? Thanks!

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

In short, more complex overtones. Much depends on your amplification.

 

[Lightninsurfer]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

That's what I was thinking. Maybe more "character".

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

The great Wah-Wah prefers the SSL-1's for the legendary "Old Dear". Probably, and it's just my guess, because the tone is more direct in an already uber-dimensional toned vintage Strat, whereas the 'Ant's impart a sweet sweet flavor to a less well endowed more modern body.

What do you say?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

^ Every guitar and amp and player is different. What one person does is wholly irrelevant to the way you choose your equipment.

 

[Lightninsurfer]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

Thanks for the responses!

 

[Lightninsurfer]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

Do the Ant II's posses girth and fullness, though? The CS '69's are a bit on the thin and wiry side and I think I'm trying to make sure I don't buy a more esoteric set of CS 69's with the Ant II's. The specs of the Surfers definitely make them appear to be a more powerful and full pickup but I do know that the specs can be misleading. In the Antiquity II's, I think of a '64 or '65 Strat pickup, which I believe were some of the thicker, more powerful pickups Fender made back in the 60's.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

You're going to have a more bold piano tone and more chime with the SSL-1s. The SSL-1s will be more crisp sounding with a snappier attack.

The Antiquity II Surf set is going to be a bit darker but will have a greater deal of harmonics vs the strong fundamental of the SSL-1.

The Antiquities although slightly diffused sounding will have greater depth. The piano tone of the Antiquities has a low end that is peaked a little higher than the SSL-1s where the Antiquities won't be quite as bold as the SSL-1 but they will be fatter sounding with a nice midrange "fullness". The Surf Ants contain lots of rich overtones.

 

[Lightninsurfer]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

Perfect!!!

 

[Lucy Diamond]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

I'm sold.

I have a new job that I'm definitely staying with so it's time to buy my Jade Pearl Strat that I've wanted to put Antiquity Surf pickups in since 2014.

I was looking around for information and every other place said "check out the duncan forums...they love these pickups." So I was all "Heeeeeeey...I know those guys!!!"

Yup.

Thanks again.

~LD

 

[jeremy]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

the cs'69 are supposed to be a little thin sounding. the antiquity surfers sound like '62 or '63 strat pups which tended to be a little stronger than the earlier and later versions

 

[thanaton]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

As far as I can tell, Antiquity II Surfers are essentially SSL-1's with gray bobbins, slightly degaussed magnets, and aging treatment applied. The Antiquity II Surfers are spec'd to have a lower DC resistance, but the ones I have on hand are the same as my SSL-1's, in the ball park of 6.5K. That being said, I prefer the tone of the Antiquity II Surfers to the SSL-1.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

i dont know if thats true. i believe the wind is different but i cant say for sure

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

i dont know if thats true. i believe the wind is different but i cant say for sure

Yep, Antiquity single coils are all scatterwound by hand which greatly influences the tone even if both pickups use the same gauge of plain enamel wire.

Seymour degausses the magnets to his exact specification too... the Ants are very unique.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

I'd really appreciate it if someone from Seymour Duncan would verify that that the Antiquity II is in fact wound on different machine, and or using a different method of winding, than is used in production of the SSL-1. No guessing, straight from the source.

As for scatter winding, I'd really like someone to explain to me how that's supposed to make a difference.

As for the Gauss, you have to appreciate that AlNiCo is rather unstable with respect to holding a charge. It's easily charged and un-charged, and will lose charge simply by being dropped, and that when AlNiCo is undercharged, it becomes even less stable than if it were fully charged as the magnetic domains in the AlNiCo are no longer working as hard to maintain the orientation of their neighboring domains, so it's not very reasonable to expect that AlNiCo can be degaussed be some particular amount, and then remain at that Gauss indefinitely. Deguassing an AlNiCo magnet to a particular degree is tricky business. Therefor, I don't think the production difference between the SSL-1 and the Antiquity II are like to be as exacting as their promotional copy would have us believe.

BTW, I just looked up their product page for the Antiquity II, http://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/antiquity-ii-surfer-strat-neck and I see the DC resistance is now listed as 6.5K where as previously it was listed at 6.3K. So in essence, the only thing that separates it from an SSL-1 are the vague claims about scatter winding and the uncertain process of degaussing the AlNiCo pole pieces. Again, I like degaussed AlNiCo, I'm not saying I have anything against it.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

I just looked up their product page for the Antiquity II, http://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/antiquity-ii-surfer-strat-neck and I see the DC resistance is now listed as 6.5K where as previously it was listed at 6.3K. So in essence, the only thing that separates it from an SSL-1 are the vague claims about scatter winding and the uncertain process of degaussing the AlNiCo pole pieces. Again, I like degaussed AlNiCo, I'm not saying I have anything against it.

Vague claims? Uncertain processes? Degaussing alnico magnets by dropping them?

Let's start with the facts:

What is Scatterwinding and how does it affect tone and output

Information about Antiquities

Here's the section talking about handwinding the Antiquity single coils. - "Seymour Duncan Antiquity pickups are true and faithful recreations of pickups from this golden age. For example, each Antiquity single coil is hand-wound using a scatter-wind process which is faithful to how the originals were made. The Alnico II magnets are slightly demagnetzed to capture the sound of an aged magnet, and the wire, insulation and bobbins are also treated with special processes to capture the look and, more importantly, the sonic results of decades of use. And the Antiquity II pickups include features like custom-calibrated Dun-Aged™ sand-cast Alnico V rod magnets. And the distressed look of the covers will match the worn, caressed look of a vintage or reproduction guitar perfectly."

You can ask any question about pickups under the sun, but try and keep your tone from weaving into accusatory & incredulous territory. Seymour Duncan is neither vague nor uncertain when it comes to information about their products.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

Is there a rule against incredulity here?

Let's look at this first http://www.seymourduncan.com/faqs/what-is-scatter-winding-and-how-does-it-affect-tone-and-output

> First of all, when you scatter wind a pickup, you’re not placing the wire as close to itself on each layer as you would with a machine. The effect is to create more air space in the coil. This lowers the distributed capacitance. The best way to think of distributed capacitance is like a little tone control in the pickup. When the capacitance is lowered, the result is that more treble will come through and the resonant peak of the pickup will increase slightly.

What reduction in picofarads can we expect from a scatter wound coil? Using a shorter guitar cable also reduces the distributed capacitance too, since as a single passive circuit, the guitar cable is essentially another part of the pickup, so claiming that you've done something to increase or decrease said capacitance is not especially remarkable. For reference, every foot of guitar cable increases the distributed capacitance by anywhere from 15 to 30 picofarads, depending upon the quality of the cable.

Using heavy build formvar will also increase the distance between the fine magnet wire to some unknown extent, but to whatever extent it does this, the concept is the same.

> Secondly, each scatter-wound pickup will sound slightly unique. You can scatter-wind ten pickups with the same wire and number of turns, but each will sound different.

Sound different how? Through what mechanism?

Now on to the marketing copy:

> The Alnico II magnets are slightly demagnetzed to capture the sound of an aged magnet

OK, there's no promise of specificity here, except to say "slightly". As I was saying, exacting specificity this would be difficult to manage.

> and the wire, insulation and bobbins are also treated with special processes to capture the look

This concerns aesthetics; important but not relevant to the tone.

> and, more importantly, the sonic results of decades of use

Again, I'd ask how, and through what mechanism do the bits of dirt and stain effect the sonic result?

What's missing in all of these claims is results to back up the claims being made, something to the effect "we first measured a traditionally constructed pickup, it had values A, B and C. We then specially constructed and treated this new pickup, and it now has values X, Y and Z."

 

[Hecubus]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

I have played all three sets and I would put the Surfers right in between the 69s and SSL-1s as far as "beef, thickness, and punch." As far as chime, the Surfers are the leader of the pack. I personally like the 69s a lot, but I totally understand where you are coming from. When I need a little more from them, I find kicking on an EP booster gets them into SSL-1 territory.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

Is there a rule against incredulity here?

no, just make sure you are following the forum rules while not believing anything

Let's look at this first http://www.seymourduncan.com/faqs/what-is-scatter-winding-and-how-does-it-affect-tone-and-output

> First of all, when you scatter wind a pickup, you’re not placing the wire as close to itself on each layer as you would with a machine. The effect is to create more air space in the coil. This lowers the distributed capacitance. The best way to think of distributed capacitance is like a little tone control in the pickup. When the capacitance is lowered, the result is that more treble will come through and the resonant peak of the pickup will increase slightly.

What reduction in picofarads can we expect from a scatter wound coil? Using a shorter guitar cable also reduces the distributed capacitance too, since as a single passive circuit, the guitar cable is essentially another part of the pickup, so claiming that you've done something to increase or decrease said capacitance is not especially remarkable. For reference, every foot of guitar cable increases the distributed capacitance by anywhere from 15 to 30 picofarads, depending upon the quality of the cable.

Using heavy build formvar will also increase the distance between the fine magnet wire to some unknown extent, but to whatever extent it does this, the concept is the same.

right

> Secondly, each scatter-wound pickup will sound slightly unique. You can scatter-wind ten pickups with the same wire and number of turns, but each will sound different.

Sound different how? Through what mechanism?

if the coil is unique then it will sound unique.

Now on to the marketing copy:

> The Alnico II magnets are slightly demagnetzed to capture the sound of an aged magnet

OK, there's no promise of specificity here, except to say "slightly". As I was saying, exacting specificity this would be difficult to manage.

> and the wire, insulation and bobbins are also treated with special processes to capture the look

This concerns aesthetics; important but not relevant to the tone.

> and, more importantly, the sonic results of decades of use

Again, I'd ask how, and through what mechanism do the bits of dirt and stain effect the sonic result?

What's missing in all of these claims is results to back up the claims being made, something to the effect "we first measured a traditionally constructed pickup, it had values A, B and C. We then specially constructed and treated this new pickup, and it now has values X, Y and Z."

alnico 2 magnets arent used in the surfers so i assume you pulled that copy from the texas hots or duncan has mis information on the website. either way, the process duncan uses to degauss the magnets might be very precise and accurate. its a proprietary thing so i dont expect them to share much detail.

the bottom line is do you like the pup? if so, great!! if not, find something else.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Duncan SSL-1's Compared to Antiquity II Surfers

no, just make sure you are following the forum rules while not believing anything

right

if the coil is unique then it will sound unique.

That's not strictly true. Take capacitors for example. You have film caps, ceramic caps, silver mica, PIO, but if it's a .047 uF cap, then .047 uF is the amount of capacitance you're going to get, within tolerances. The fact that they unique materials gives them unique properties, but they don't alter the usable capacitance value. For example, some types of caps make them more suited to withstand high heat, some can carry a higher voltage, some can leak while others will not, along with many more case specific differences. In the same respect, you have have two pickup coils wound differently, and that difference might count for something, but it won't necessarily count in a way that effects it's performance.

As mentioned above, heavy formvar also increases the space between the wire so as to lower the parallel capacitance, so it's theoretically possible that you could scatter wind one pickup, but just use heavy formvar for the other, and arrive at the same end result. The fact that there is something physically different about their construction doesn't mean they will necessarily sound different.

alnico 2 magnets arent used in the surfers so i assume you pulled that copy from the texas hots or duncan has mis information on the website.

That copy came from zenmindbeginner's post.

either way, the process duncan uses to degauss the magnets might be very precise and accurate. its a proprietary thing so i dont expect them to share much detail.

I've actually tested the Gauss of my Antiquity II pole pieces, to see how degaussed they are, and I found that they were not consistent from pole piece to pole piece, not should anyone expect degaussed A5 to be. The good news is that it doesn't make a huge difference if they aren't all perfectly matched. There is one pole piece in particular that is much lower than all the rest, but when I pluck that string, it is not much quieter, it just sounds a bit softer than the others, which is also how I'd characterize the pickup as a whole; a much softer sounding SSL-1.

Somewhat related, the premise of DiMarzio's "Air-Bucker technology" is that they can use a more stable, fully charged AlNiCo 5 bar, but get the characteristic of a degaussed AlNiCo 5, without resorting to AlNiCo 2, which has different metallurgic properties than AlNiCo 5, or by degaussing an AlNiCo 5 bar, and thereby destabilizing it.