E6maj7?

[JacobTM]

So Flank and I were having a conversation about chord construction, and this came up. Did we figure this out proper, or is what we found out called something else?

[01:18] cystemofadown3: can you add a 6th?
[01:18] permanentsp: umm
[01:18] permanentsp: to an 11th?
[01:18] permanentsp: or whatever
[01:18] permanentsp: ?
[01:19] cystemofadown3: like have a Emaj7 and add the 6th to it. If you added the 6th at an octave above the root, then it would just turn into a Maj13, but what if you add it in from the same octave
[01:20] cystemofadown3: it wouldnt be an E6 cause the maj7 is in there, but it wouldnt turn into a Maj13 because the added 6th isnt an octave above the root note
[01:20] cystemofadown3: idk, maybe its not even possible on a guitar
[01:21] permanentsp: umm
[01:21] permanentsp: i wanna see now
[01:21] permanentsp: that actually is possible
[01:21] permanentsp: you play this
[01:22] permanentsp:
e|
b|
g|1
d|1
a|4
e|0
[01:22] permanentsp: I guess that'd just be an E6maj7

So is that just an E6maj7, or is there something fancier or sommat?

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

thats a sexy sounding chord when played up higher is all i know

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

that chord just became a C#m9 for me

 

[larry_emder]

Re: E6maj7?

I'd finger it like this:

e/ 9
b/ 9
g/ 8
d/ 9
a/ 7

 

[Osensei]

Re: E6maj7?

Its still a 13th. Chords are played in different inversions all the time. Keyboard players invert chords all the time. For example if a keyboard player were to see CMaj13th (indicates a maj 7th) they might play any of the following.

C E B D F# A (Here the chord is played as you might expect)

B C D E A (Wow! Now its all clustered up!)

D F# A with a C in the Bass = D/C (sounds better as a substitute for Cmaj7 +11 13 or simply CMaj13 for a Major 7th sound) Alternately Bmin7/C would be good here as well.

Note: D F A with C in the Bass = Dm/C (sounds better as a substitute for C7 11 13 or simply C13 for a dom th sound). Also BbMaj7/C (Bb Maj7 with C in the bass) would be another good sub for C13 here.

The second example doesn't even look like a chord! It just looks like a cluster of notes all scrunched together in the same octave! But you'll be surprised at how well it works. I see these used by jazz keyboard players all the time. Particularly, when they're playing Brazilian flavored stuff that has a ton of altered chords. Another example:

F7+11 become Eb F G A B
Another cluster! That's the 7th - root - ninth - third - aug 11th all in the same octave. Just because keyboardists can do that!

F7+11 therefore can also be treated as F7b5. You will find that in a lot of cases these extended chords can be played as altered 5th (aug/dim 5ths).

Cmaj7+11 = Cmaj7b5
C7 -13 = C7+ (C7 augmented)
C11 is often substituted by Csus7 on guitar lead sheets.
C11 can also be played as Bb/C (Bb Major Triad with C in the bass)

You see just because the interval in question is not in the second octave doesn't mean that it's not an extension. The sus, 6th, aug and dim chords often overlap with the extensions. So it's still valid to call them extensions. But this also means that quite frequently you can translate the extensions to be interpreted as various aug or dim forms as well.

 

[flank]

Re: E6maj7?

Its still a 13th. Chords are played in different inversions all the time. Keyboard players invert chords all the time. For example if a keyboard player were to see CMaj13th (indicates a maj 7th) they might play any of the following.

C E B D F# A (Here the chord is played as you might expect)

B C D E A (Wow! Now its all clustered up!)

D F# A with a C in the Bass = D/C (sounds better as a substitute for Cmaj7 +11 13 or simply CMaj13 for a Major 7th sound) Alternately Bmin7/C would be good here as well.

Note: D F A with C in the Bass = Dm/C (sounds better as a substitute for C7 11 13 or simply C13 for a dom th sound). Also BbMaj7/C (Bb Maj7 with C in the bass) would be another good sub for C13 here.

The second example doesn't even look like a chord! It just looks like a cluster of notes all scrunched together in the same octave! But you'll be surprised at how well it works. I see these used by jazz keyboard players all the time. Particularly, when they're playing Brazilian flavored stuff that has a ton of altered chords. Another example:

F7+11 become Eb F G A B
Another cluster! That's the 7th - root - ninth - third - aug 11th all in the same octave. Just because keyboardists can do that!

F7+11 therefore can also be treated as F7b5. You will find that in a lot of cases these extended chords can be played as altered 5th (aug/dim 5ths).

Cmaj7+11 = Cmaj7b5
C7 -13 = C7+ (C7 augmented)
C11 is often substituted by Csus7 on guitar lead sheets.
C11 can also be played as Bb/C (Bb Major Triad with C in the bass)

You see just because the interval in question is not in the second octave doesn't mean that it's not an extension. The sus, 6th, aug and dim chords often overlap with the extensions. So it's still valid to call them extensions. But this also means that quite frequently you can translate the extensions to be interpreted as various aug or dim forms as well.

so it doesn't matter what the octave the 9th,11th, or 13th is in to make a chord a 9th,11th, 13th? So then, the difference between a normal sus2,sus4, or 6th chord and 9th,11th, and 13th chords is that the 9th,11th, and 13th chords must include some form of the 7th (dom,min,maj)?

Also, while i do understand what you said in your post, does the 6maj7 chord that we came up with actually exist amongst the names of chords?

 

[Osensei]

Re: E6maj7?

so it doesn't matter what the octave the 9th,11th, or 13th is in to make a chord a 9th,11th, 13th? So then, the difference between a normal sus2,sus4, or 6th chord and 9th,11th, and 13th chords is that the 9th,11th, and 13th chords must include some form of the 7th (dom,min,maj)?

I'm not sure that it matters! Sometimes the less you know about a given chord the better. For instance, once a cat on the forum created a thread asking for advise on improvising against some Gypsy Jazz progression. When I took a look, I found the chords to be relatively simple. Major and minor triad stuff! So I put together a little solo for him. Because of the simplicity of the progression, I had the freedom to do all sorts of nice chromatic thingies that incorporated extensions beyond the basic notated chord structures. The more information you have the less freedom sometimes!

So I guess the short answer is just because a certain interval is not present (i.e the 7th) doesn't mean that it's not "implied". In a sense it's much the same way that leaving the 5th out of a major triad doesn't change the fact that it's still a major triad. If you see a C6 then theres all sorts of extrapolations you can do as an improvisor (9ths, 11ths and so on). As a rythm player though I would just play the friggin chord! :chairfall

Also, while i do understand what you said in your post, does the 6maj7 chord that we came up with actually exist amongst the names of chords?

I couldn't tell you officially, but as a cat that has played many o fake sheets in my day, I must say I have never seen a 6maj7 indicated. Plenty of 13th tho!

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

DAMMIT is that not a C#m9?
cause look

E--4
B--5
G--8
D--6
A--4
E


or even

E--0
B--4
G--1
D--2
A--4
E

correct me if i'm wrong.. but all the notes he used in his chord make a C#m9!

 

[flank]

Re: E6maj7?

DAMMIT is that not a C#m9?
cause look

E--4
B--5
G--8
D--6
A--4
E


or even

E--0
B--4
G--1
D--2
A--4
E

correct me if i'm wrong.. but all the notes he used in his chord make a C#m9!

you need the flat 7th, B, in there for the m9

so you get: root (C#)- minor 3rd (E) - flat7 (B) - 9 (Eb)

depending on what variation you want to play, you can omit or keep the 5th, which would be G#

so youd want:

E-X
B--4
G--4
D--2
A--4
E X

or you could do something with the 5th (G#) in there like:

E- 11
B--9
G--9
D--9
A--11
E 9

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

im talking about the chord in the first post.. there is no B in there.

 

[flank]

Re: E6maj7?

im talking about the chord in the first post.. there is no B in there.

theres not supposed to be. Im saying that its not a C#m9 because there is no B in it

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

hmm..
is C#m9 the same as a C#madd9?
cause thats what i meant..

 

[flank]

Re: E6maj7?

hmm..
is C#m9 the same as a C#madd9?
cause thats what i meant..

no, when you see add9, it means just adding the 9th to the major or minor triad. Those chords you posted are indeed C#madd9.

a m9 chord must include the flat 7th in there along with the minor triad and the 9th. a Maj9 chord then must include the Maj7 rather than the flat 7.

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

ohhh ok.. well thanks for clearing that up for me

 

[flank]

Re: E6maj7?

ohhh ok.. well thanks for clearing that up for me

no prob.

you were right though, C#madd9 has the same notes as the Emaj13 chord that we thought of in the first post

 

[IcedEarth112]

Re: E6maj7?

thats really wierd.. 2 different chords with the same notes.
is it an Emaj13 or is that what you guys thought in the first place?
cause if they are both different chords but the same chords then im confused

 

[flank]

Re: E6maj7?

thats really wierd.. 2 different chords with the same notes.
is it an Emaj13 or is that what you guys thought in the first place?
cause if they are both different chords but the same chords then im confused

well, i was under the assumption that to make a chord a 13, the 13th note that is added had to of been more than an octave away from the root, otherwise its just a normal 6 chord. We were wondering if this was true or not, because you can add the 6th (or essentially the 13, but not more than one octave away from the root) to a Emaj7 chord, and we wanted to know if this became an E6maj7, or if it was just an Emaj13. Turns out, it doesnt matter if the 13 is more than an octave away from the root or not, you can just call it a 13 rather than a 6, since you got the maj7 (or really you just need any type of 7th) in there already. If there was no type of 7th in there, it would just be an E6

as for them having the same notes, that happens all the time. It just depends what the root note is. The chords will contain completely different elements (such as an added 9 or a 13th), but all of the same notes. Its just they are in different orders, and stem from whatever the roots are, which in our case, was an E and a C#

 

[Osensei]

Re: E6maj7?

Any guitar chord book would reveal that a particular extended chord can be completely fingered with the four fingers of the left hand and that the extended note need not be beyond the first octave.

Bb13 would therefore look very similar to the Bb7 bar form with the pinky on the 6th.