Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

[SlyFoxx]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Word.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

All we need are two identical slabs of wood that way the test will accurate.

So who can clone wood?

 

[Big Flannel]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Quit showing off for Facebook.

 

[Securb]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

The calibration amplitude spectra from each measurement configuration is saved on PC and can be compared real-time during any subsequent measurement. A plucking that did not match the calibration file within a known percentage would be discarded. The long term repeatability data (better than 2%) has been collected over the course of several years. What that means is if I plug in the identical guitar/pickup set and use the cal file to adjust my picking, I will get the same results today that I got years ago within a few percent.

That alone is amazing to me! What that really means is that, if you are careful, you can train yourself (with the aid of a visual reference) to pick the same note (I only used open strings so fingering would not be a factor), at the same location (to within a few mm of center between the two pickups), with the exact same pick (Gretsch 0.050) , in nearly the same way (moderate lead passage), and get almost identical results. One might be able to improve on my 2% long tern repeatabilty data by using a picking robot, but the differences I am reporting on in my papers can be orders of magnitude in spectral amplitude and factors of 3 and 4 in sustain. These difference will not arise from picking variations alone. That's not conjecture - that's a fact that is easy to verify. I already have.

Butch this was a great write up. I appreciate you taking the time to publish your findings with us. It is difficult to find research on tone woods this detailed and accurate.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Oh, noes! I'm an exploited consumer!

My Parker Fly Mojo doesn't really sound differently than the Fly Deluxe, or even my Ibie Semi-hollow. It's all in my (mis)perception.

I've been had!

The mahogany has no impact on tone. Even worse, it has a *gasp* JB in the bridge position!:saeek:


I guess the Temptations were correct and it's "Just My Imagination."

Ignorance IS bliss!

:chairfall

The Mojo has, well MOJO. It plays well, sounds great, and is super stable. I guess I wasted money on it.

:lmao:

 

[vinta9e]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Some phisicists claim that due to the construction pickup can't "hear" the vibrations of the wood as it only reacts on the vibrations of metal parts.

That means not only they are deaf but also stupid enough to admit it, along with denying Newton's third law of motion. And these guys have the dare to call themselves "physicists"? What a bad joke.

There are many opinions, and everybody can have their own, present them, exchange them, discuss them. Then there are facts. Facts should not be debated.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Speaking as a scientist, I find the methods a touch suspect.

That said, I am not entirely surprised at findings regarding the constancy of his performance. Seen that in a lab with musicians before.

The REAL question is, IMO, what is the range of variation in particular sets of wood, combinations of things etc….


It's a very complex equation. I suspect that there are individual differences as well as global one;

A Les Paul with a 500T is likely very different than a Strat.

Les Paul's with and without a Maple tops likely differ on average as well.

But - a sample of Maple top Les Pauls likely shows quite a range as well!

 

[voggin]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Speaking as a scientist, I find the methods a touch suspect.

That said, I am not entirely surprised at findings regarding the constancy of his performance. Seen that in a lab with musicians before.

The REAL question is, IMO, what is the range of variation in particular sets of wood, combinations of things etc….


It's a very complex equation. I suspect that there are individual differences as well as global one;

A Les Paul with a 500T is likely very different than a Strat.

Les Paul's with and without a Maple tops likely differ on average as well.

But - a sample of Maple top Les Pauls likely shows quite a range as well!

That's certainly been my experience. Same model, same year, very different sound.

The best proof I have to offer of the importance of wood/density is the SG and the LP. SG have an SG-ness, and LP's have an LP-ness, despite the same scale length, similarity of electronics and hardware. The only difference, really, between the two is one is a thinner piece of mahogany and the other is a thick maple/mahogany sandwich.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

In order to quantify the effect of something, all other factors have to be consistent and controlled. The problem with guitars and tone is there are so many other factors that need to be consistent it's nearly impossible to measure just one aspect like a pickup or wood. However I am not discounting the value of the experiment, if you read this completely. I'm mainly pointing out that while no one may have THE answer, these kinds of experiments and discussions are valuable as information and to get an idea.

Consider the factors that result in the tone of a guitar that need to be consistent and controlled (this is not a comprehensive list, it's just off the top of my head):
Hand technique, distance from bridge when plucking, use of a pick, thickness of pick, material pick is made of, string length, diameter and tension, material the strings are made of, material the bridge and nut are made of, body/neck wood, pickup construction, electronic components in the guitar, the amp model, if it's tubes, what model tube, what brand it was made by, even what year it was made and in what factory it was made (implying different tooling and internal tube components which result in different response and sound from the same model tube), the speaker cabinet construction, the speaker model, and last but not least, the room where the sound will be heard in. Yes, the room is a factor because sound takes place in the air and any wall reflections or fabric/upholstery that absorbs frequencies will alter that sound just like a tone control or EQ.

I'll give an example for the room effect: you hear that guitar in the big music store with the high ceilings and all glass storefront and it sounds massive, bright, edgy, perfect. Then you take it home, plug into your amp in your 10' x 10' bedroom and all the treble and bite is gone and it sounds muddy, why? - because you have a 2' x 5' x 6' mattress absorbing all the high frequencies, and walls less than 5' from your ears bouncing back high frequencies out of phase, cancelling some and making the details muddy and unclear.

However, all that said, these kinds of explorations are still valuable to generalize and use as a guide. For example, the concluding summary graph on page 10 of the first report is quite valuable to any guitar player who is troubleshooting issues with their set up and would like to explore what things they could change. The graph simply checks off which configurations seemed to have more bass or mids, etc. That is actually a more accurate a statement than trying to quantify and assert something like 'this wood with that pickup results in 6db more 4khz frequencies' because such a statement would only be true for the test rig in the test environment. As soon as a guitar player bought that model pickup and guitar, brought it home and played through their own amp in their own room, all those numbers will be different. But to know, generally, that this pickup has more treble, and this guitar body is warmer, etc. is valuable enough to explore on your own and later make decisions based on that personal exploration. I take it for what it is: information, a guideline to start with.

No one will ever be able to look at the specifications of a guitar and state exactly what it will sound like. You will have to plug it in and hear it in your own situation. These kinds of discussions can only give you a reasonable idea as a starting place. So I wouldn't look to this discussion for THE answer. I would use this discussion as a starting place for individual exploration.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

I don't worry about it a whole lot, aside from the occasional curiosity on the topic:

- People will say this or that about the effect of basswood on a guitar's tone, in relation to Steve Vai, perhaps not realizing that his main guitar for years and years has been a JEM with an alder body.

- With just the few basswood guitars I've owned and played, I'm not sure I have a good grasp on what the wood sounds like. I know what the guitars sound like, but they've been so different from one another that, if I found out some of them had been alder, mahogany, or pine, I wouldn't be too surprised.

- If I were buying or building a Telecaster, I'd definitely want ash, but mainly because I usually like the way it looks through translucent finishes. Also, the best Teles I've played have all been translucent on ash, so I figure I'd might as well stack the deck.

- If I were shopping for a new USA Jackson, and the salesman told me, "This year, all the neck-through models have poplar body wings", I'd probably pause for a second before grabbing one and plugging in. I'm not going to try to hunt down an older one with alder wings -- not without at least playing the ones in front of me first. If I thought they blew, then I'd start looking around.

- So, uh, yeah. Guitars.

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Shut up and play yer guitar.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

^ What if I shaddup n' play YER guitar?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

^ or he shuts up and STEALS your guitar....after playing it and saying 'man thats a super bit of wood there'

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

As an exploited consumer I would like to add that I REALLY enjoyed playing my Mojo tonight with its mahogany body.

 

[Big Flannel]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

As an exploited consumer I would like to add that I REALLY enjoyed playing my Mojo tonight with its mahogany body.

What color is it? I found the natural finish to sound a bit woody while the blue had a sweet, soothing timbre.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

I relegate this as something for engineers. On paper it makes a difference but in reality probably not that obvious.

 

[CTN]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

What color is it? I found the natural finish to sound a bit woody while the blue had a sweet, soothing timbre.

nah man, the natural finished ones with just a clear coat are actually the most transparent ones.

you can hear all the sound of the wood without any coloration from the colour coats. Not sure exactly what you're hearing, but you're hearing it! Can you imagine being forced to listen to a sunburst finish? that's like 3 different colours and a clear coat on top of it. Ugh, it probably sounds like goat doodoo.

 

[SD fan]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

I have seen a few such experiments, of course with the use of spectrum analyser, that prove exactly the opposite, that wood doesn't affect the tone. You can find them easily on the internet. Some phisicists claim that due to the construction pickup can't "hear" the vibrations of the wood as it only reacts on the vibrations of metal parts. I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm just saying that there are many different opinions and myths regarding electric guitars and it is unlikely to make a proof that will end the discussion. Every player has its own observations and different experience because tone is very subjective. Some say you should use 250 k pots with humbs, the others claim that a set neck has better sustain. I disagree with both. I don't know whether wood affects the tone, but I personally hardly hear any difference and therefore it doesn't affect my decisions on buying guitars. I believe that changing pots or switching to different amp has much more impact. That is my experience. You can have different and I have no problem with that.

Science and experimentation is what it is. The results do not always conform to opinion. Acoustic instruments that depend upon the wood for sound are indeed subject to the wood and its various stages of density and mass. Electric solid bodies much more so the pickups and components also the amp, hands, and other issues with the rig. All amount to a range of variables you simply cannot contain in a controlled study.
As I said previously one would have to begin with the exact same guitar which is impossible in the case of a Les Paul even if you changed out all the hardware and pickup a assembly on each wood sample to compare the exact rendering of each guitar neck/body will have slight variance which will effect the results as well.
Even if you were to be able to construct this mythical in scope test guitar and could control all the construction variables even the tension and force used to pluck the strings the mere issues of a different set of strings is another variable that can skew accuracy.

String vibration is a matter of mass and the density, the wood and even the finish on the wood plays a small part in that, as far as wood producing or magnifying various frequencies a null issue with typical electric as the pickups do not "hear" or "see" it. It is never what some wish to hear and indeed in this age of science denial doubt and one's "beliefs" to the contrary of reality itself, it is not surprising controversy and argument rages in a variant of issues that really have no sustainable grounding other than "I think or believe it".

A complex array experiment to determine exact results is well nigh impossible it the scope of required variable isolation and controls.
You cannot look to science to prove some things as the variable control is sometimes on a scope and scale that cannot be properly designed.
Having worked for a number of decades using proper design of experiments and research and development requirements for determining results, it is an "impossible" test regarding this wood thing.
Physics would indicate it is not a proper assumption because typical magnetic pickups cannot sense wood characteristics regardless of acoustic properties. There is only mass and density to consider which affects how long the string will vibrate aka sustain. Physics would adhere that the more mass, heavier more solidly constructed object would sustain vibration longer than a loose system that dissipates the energy from the string.

The construction of the pickup itself and the components it is wired to are the variable to which science can be applied. You can test the same guitar with differing pickups, but a test with different guitars, different woods, different hardware and pickups is impossible in scope and variability. The results are at best non sequitur in cause and effect.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

Lots of good (and flawed) banter in this thread, I'm only picking on your post because it's the most recent, and it happens to contain everything I'd like to reply to.

Science and experimentation is what it is. The results do not always conform to opinion. Acoustic instruments that depend upon the wood for sound are indeed subject to the wood and its various stages of density and mass. Electric solid bodies much more so the pickups and components also the amp, hands, and other issues with the rig. All amount to a range of variables you simply cannot contain in a controlled study.

All a controlled study has to do is determine whether the wood does make a difference in the amplified tone. From there, it's okay if the rest of the analysis becomes subjective and experience based. It's those who are religious about claiming wood has zero affect on the plugged in tone who need correcting. I'm less worried about someone who disagrees about which woods are darker/brighter/sustain longer etc.

String vibration is a matter of mass and the density, the wood and even the finish on the wood plays a small part in that, as far as wood producing or magnifying various frequencies a null issue with typical electric as the pickups do not "hear" or "see" it. It is never what some wish to hear and indeed in this age of science denial doubt and one's "beliefs" to the contrary of reality itself, it is not surprising controversy and argument rages in a variant of issues that really have no sustainable grounding other than "I think or believe it".

This is my biggest disagreement, and perhaps the biggest point that is neglected by many who debate this issue. It's the feedback loop between the wood's resonant frequencies and the sustain characteristics of the strings. You could graph the ASDR amplitude envelope and still miss out on the magic, which is how the frequency content changes during the decay. If there were no outside stimulus (i.e. you're playing into earbuds) then the effect is less apparent, but the addition of amplified SPL is what dramatically reveals wood differences that are based on resonance, not just density and weight and their affect on sustain. For example, you can have a guitar with terrible sustain, but if it resonates well at A, it could launch in to infinite feedback with the amp around the key of A, much sooner than a neck through guitar with excellent sustain and a much flatter resonance, or one that resonates well at F.

A complex array experiment to determine exact results is well nigh impossible it the scope of required variable isolation and controls. [/B]
You cannot look to science to prove some things as the variable control is sometimes on a scope and scale that cannot be properly designed.
Having worked for a number of decades using proper design of experiments and research and development requirements for determining results, it is an "impossible" test regarding this wood thing.

Maybe impossible to isolate precisely what frequencies, and what aspects of ADSR will be repeatedly affected, since wood itself is a constant variable. There are no same pieces of wood. But to prove that it does have an effect? Of course. There are several ways. Part of my business in product development includes analysis such as this.

Physics would indicate it is not a proper assumption because typical magnetic pickups cannot sense wood characteristics regardless of acoustic properties. There is only mass and density to consider which affects how long the string will vibrate aka sustain. Physics would adhere that the more mass, heavier more solidly constructed object would sustain vibration longer than a loose system that dissipates the energy from the string.

Physics suggests no such thing. Like a computer, it's only as reliable as it's operator. Physics would prove the wood does change the way a solidbody electric sounds plugged in. It's a matter of degree. The guitar's response to a cranked amp is proof enough. The outside SPL magnifies the differences to the point of measure. Many of these types of tests are done with the guitar silent or quietly monitored. They listen only to one string at a time, or neglect to consider what happens when many notes are played, in and out of keys that are sympathetic to the guitars resonance. (no disrespect to the test referenced in the title post)

I've told the Angus Young story many times, no need to repeat it. But the short version is we were tasked with making Angus' #2 guitar behave more like his #1 guitar. They had already swapped the pickups and the tone and sustain characteristics did not follow the pickup. It was inherent in the guitar. Different pieces of wood, RW vs Ebony board, etc. They resonated completely differently. In the end, it was a combination of pickup, hardware, and other changes to finally make his #2 guitar suitable for more than one song. We succeeded. He began using it for 6-7 songs or to finish the rest of the set.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Effects of Wood and Pickups on Tone

If you don't mind me asking what all did you do to Angus's #2? Or can you link the thread?