Engineer comments

Re: Engineer comments

By the way... this IS an interesting thread... but ther IS a balance to be made....

Pyscho-acoustics are so variable that you could spend an eternity trying to document the variables of a "controlled" experiment... but then again... just grab the thing and see if you have chemistry seems to yield more accurate and immediate, albeit crude, results!!!
 
Re: Engineer comments

Engineers don't know jack about tone.

My Dad is a retired electrical engineer and one of those guys back in the 60s who was impressed with the way an oscilloscope clearly indicated that solid state amps were more "hi fi" than their tube counterparts. After decades of judging sound quality via spectrum analysis, he now realizes that quantifiable measures are no substitute for the subjective experience of actually listening. Funny how a lot of those folks who ooh'ed and ah'ed over SS back in the day are now paying stoopid money for tube stereo rigs because, despite their relative lack of fidelity, they sound better.

The key to finding great tone is first figuring out what sounds good and then working from there. Trying to boil all the physics and psychoacoustics and personal taste down to some sort of recipe for tone is setting yourself up for failure.

Back in the early 80s (when you were just learning not to poop your pants ;)), people thought that 12 lb Les Pauls with brass nuts and heavy hardware was the route to tonal nirvana. Ultimately, a lot of those instruments were deemed more useful as firewood than as musical instruments. Perhaps things are coming full-circle.

I think it's important to keep in mind that every piece of wood is different. Some are solid while others are resonant (regardless of weight). I'd suggest that it's no less a mistake to assume tonal properties on the basis of mass than it is to assume them on the basis of aesthetics.
 
Re: Engineer comments

Dammit! THAT's why I can't get good sound outta my AAA matchbook flamed maple Carlos Tremonti Paul Reed Smith? LOL!
 
Re: Engineer comments

<---- is still using Pure Blues 10's . lolerz?

PS: nice thread!

joelap gives away his engineering bona fides by using the word irregardless .. which is not even a word ... you can use regardless .... or irrespective ... but not a mashup of both

:D
 
Re: Engineer comments

I asked an engineer today at work, whose specialty is vibration analysis, about some guitar related stuff. I found out some interesting info. Just some conclusions I drew:

1) More dense = more inertia for a string or vibrating object to overcome, but more sustain once set in motion. I sat there for a while analyzing the engineering formula for inertia as applied to a vibrating string between two points. More mass means more inertia, so while it may be more resistant to being set into motion initially, once set into motion it will take more for it to be dampened.

2) Ways to get more sustain: hit the string harder (more initial force), pluck it more towards the center of the string (force in the equation is modified by where it impacts the string), and make the two points between which the string is suspended more resistant to being moved (one way: making them more dense, since more mass means, again, harder to set it into motion, but then also harder to dampen the motion).

3) All other things being equal, thicker strings require more tension to tune them to pitch. This could both cause strings to not vibrate as long compared to their thinner cousins, but also mean that they vibrate longer due to mass in the form of inertia. The jury's still out: I'd need to calculate the dampening effect of the string due to tension and then the amount of inerta the string would have, since those two factors will be combating each other.

4) It's nice that electric guitars are electric, but ultimately, this means that the wood will have a small effect on overall tone. True, it will have an effect, but the wood is more of a damper that has other resonant frequencies, so it will color the tone, but sucky wood will have sucky tone. Case in point: maple is more dense than swamp ash, which gives it higher sustain (since it resists motion being transfered to it more, thus sort of reduces the dampening of string motion by the body), but you may not like the overtones it has due to its internal resonant frequencies.

5) More mass means more inertia applies to floating tremolos. For example, an aluminum tremolo block and such will be less dense than nickel or steel, meaning that you will get less sustain, or should, all other things being equal. Callaham's tremolo blocks should, then, be better for sustain. Also, a six-point tremolo block bolt pattern should get less lost sustain to the dampening of other factors, but the jury is still out.

The most I got to was the "how much vibration will you get based on string and force". Bottom line, however: more sustain should come from having end fulcrums (i.e. string nut and bridge) that are more resistant to vibration (i.e. their larger mass / resonant frequency tends to reflect energy back to the string rather than dampen it). Also, the last thing we found together was that if you have strings and a bridge / nut that are the same material, you should get better sustain, all things being equal. If you can afford a nickel steel string nut and saddles that are the same alloy as "pure nickel" strings, you should get nice sustain, all other things being equal.

Lastly, yes, when I told the engineer how pickups were made, he agreed that they could be essentially acting as magnetic dampeners if too powerful, so more sustain should come from weaker magnets and/or magnets farther from the strings, but again, there's no one "magic bullet" for getting huge sustain: too many factors.

I'll start digging into more math monday :D

Fascinating..... yet kinda redundant, as this is all old info, most of which I've seen people on here tell you.

It's extremely disturbing that you trust equations more than your ears.
 
Re: Engineer comments

I'm not trying to make this out to be "engineering is the key to the universe". However, if failing miserably is a .1% difference, you're a sad person indeed. Engineering isn't perfect, but .1% isn't enough difference between paper and reality to be worried. Remember, these people are the ones that helped prove the "old guitar player" legends and such to be factual and not hogwash.

It's not a .1% issue. The difference can be as great as wood taken from the top of the tree to wood taken from the bottom of the tree. It can be the result of wood that grew in a valley with more moisture and wood that grew in an area that expereinced drought.

What sounds good is good. What gets it sounding good has factors as variable as wood density, the player, the pickups, the amp, etc. An entire world exists that can change and effect the outcome as a whole.

I'm not saying that math has no place but if you're trying to find absolutes in an attempt to define something as a true or false statement for every situation then you're on a fools errand.
 
Re: Engineer comments

Fascinating..... yet kinda redundant, as this is all old info, most of which I've seen people on here tell you.

It's extremely disturbing that you trust equations more than your ears.

My pockets aren't deep enough to randomly experiment. Sorry.

Skarekrough said:
I'm not saying that math has no place but if you're trying to find absolutes in an attempt to define something as a true or false statement for every situation then you're on a fools errand.

I'm just doing research to see if there's truth behind some of what I've been told. I trust the majority of it, but there are a few things that I don't. Oh well.

The one thing that did seem to catch my eye was the thing about mass and inertia (whether at rest or in motion). In theory, then, there's some truth behind the "Phat Finger" or whatever it's called: more headstock mass should make one of the fulcrums (i.e. the string nut) take less vibration away from the strings.
 
Re: Engineer comments

But I don't want to stretch their patience by putting too many hours on the store display models (especially since some store display models are what they're actually selling).

This is kind of off-subject, but I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile: When you go try out a guitar, do you ask for one out of the back rather than the "display model"? I'm not talking about amps, pedals, etc.... just guitars.
 
Re: Engineer comments

This is kind of off-subject, but I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile: When you go try out a guitar, do you ask for one out of the back rather than the "display model"? I'm not talking about amps, pedals, etc.... just guitars.

The local guitar shop doesn't have any in the back: all are on display.
 
Re: Engineer comments

This is a cool thread. I've definately experienced what you've talked. Of course there's other factors like the wood variation but these are more general statements.
 
Re: Engineer comments

And to the guys that say "just play it!", you're missing a key point... Some of us nerds LIKE discussing this stuff. :D

Yeh. I love tech talk.

That's why stores don't charge you to try stuff ;)

But I've been yelled at in Warsaw for just playing stuff through amps at semi loud volumes. It was only me in the shop and I wanted to buy an amp to play louder a bit. And it's quite obvious that an amps sounds different loud.

Once I started to speak in English (Which obviously means I have money! Duh!) the guy cleaned up his act and offered help.

I walked out of that store flipping the bird left, right, and center!
 
Re: Engineer comments

there's a scientific explanation for everything, from tubes to those special violins. We just haven't figured it out yet. There's no magic in anything, just vibrations, statics, dynamics, ohms law, etc. etc. etc. It's a puzzle we still haven't put the pieces together with, only this puzzle doesn't have the big picture outside of the box.

I agree.

For my senior project (I'll be starting over the summer, I might as well talk about it in this thread since its relevant) I'm building two guitar preamps. Both will be A/Bed into my Vox AC30CC effects return so they will be running the same cab, same speakers, same location in the room, etc (no component differences based on poweramp or speaker tolerances). One preamp will be tube, the other will be solid state. Both will have the same theoretical frequency response in Cadence, dB gain, etc. And to make things a little more consistent, I will run the tubes and the MOSFETs at the SAME VOLTAGE (part of what people claim makes Tubes better than SS is the higher voltages). I will take a spectrum analyzer in our audio lab and analyze the signals, for volume, frequency, and harmonic content between the two. I also plan on blind testing some experienced players (and HART school musicians) to see which they think is the tube amp and which the prefer. That last part is just for my own benefit. I'll share results here when I finish.

I'm going to bet that if you stay completely clean, ie. in the tubes' linear operating range, the differences will be indistinguishable through a guitar cab. I like tube sound because of the tubes' overload characteristics. When you're done, drive 'em both into light clipping and see if anyone can tell the difference.
 
Re: Engineer comments

PS: there's a scientific explanation for everything, from tubes to those special violins. We just haven't figured it out yet. There's no magic in anything, just vibrations, statics, dynamics, ohms law, etc. etc. etc. It's a puzzle we still haven't put the pieces together with, only this puzzle doesn't have the big picture outside of the box.
True but IMO not particularly relevant in this context. Even if we come to understand the science behind good tone (assuming that we could objectively differentiate good tone from tone that's not so good), I'd suggest that it's improbable that such understanding could enable a player to determine that a particular instrument would have more desirable tone than another of the same model, let alone another instrument of different design without physical contact with the instrument.

If you need to be physically present to measure those factors that make it sound good, what advantage do you have over evaluating a guitar's tone the old-fashioned way: by playing it?
 
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