expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

[GoldenVulture]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

There is no credibility in that statement. It came after a smack down I received for not drinking the cool aid offered by the magnet settling time cabal. Pepe was spot on for challenging it, though I wish I had said months rather than years. I was poking fun at the fanciful things that I read by people that often leads to speculation about the cause which never includes the fallibility of the human auditory system. Perhaps that's because it isn't commonly understood by this community. That's OK. Hopefully those who are curious and open-minded will consider this.

You still haven't answered my main question nor most other peoples.
So basically your just trolling this thread and posting irrelevant self perpetuating crap that " makes you right ".

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

A pickup is the combination of magnet and wire properties essentially. You have output, inductance and resonant frequency measurements. I think for the most part that a multimeter can read all you need, but an oscilloscope might also be more useful for some of them.

And despite what some might think, perception is also something that can be proof in the right circumstances. Of course you have to be open minded, and prepared to be objective.

I was not attempting to argue, I want to learn because I am on unfamiliar terrain. However, I do think a scope would be required as I don't think a meter alone can provide all the necessary data.

 

[gregory]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

For some, perhaps their attitude about the new sound has to settle. What does it matter? The real point is when you make a change, give it time and try it out through its paces before you conclude it didn't work or do what you expected.

I fear people will be dissuaded from experimenting when they read this type of stuff...

the impatient will probably not have a great time as a swapper.

...and believe it warrants objective proof.

While it isn't the most fun or glamorous thing, I do know something about objective listening tests from my work as a trained listener in the development of audio products that rely on psychoacoustics.

Anyway, what is left for me is to ponder why I should be so worried about the veracity of wisdom gleaned from the internet.

You guys are welcome to dismiss everything I've ever said in this discussion, though I wouldn't be surprised to see this topic rearing its ugly head again, because the notion that magnets require settling time doesn't appear to be settled and those floating the idea are unwilling to provide any objective evidence corroborating their claims. Make no mistake, the burden of proof falls on those claiming that magnets require settling time. I am all for conducting tests and presenting data, though I have not experienced the phenomenon and as a data point, which doesn't do anything to advance the idea. Null results will not disprove the possibility that the phenomenon can be perceived. What is required is a positive result and I don't think it's worthwhile searching for unicorns (yes, I am cynical about it; I've seen far too many dubious claims about the subject of sound).

I promise this is the last I will speak of it in this topic.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I fear people will be dissuaded from experimenting when they read this type of stuff...

...and believe it warrants objective proof.

While it isn't the most fun or glamorous thing, I do know something about objective listening tests from my work as a trained listener in the development of audio products that rely on psychoacoustics.

Anyway, what is left for me is to ponder why I should be so worried about the veracity of wisdom gleaned from the internet.

You guys are welcome to dismiss everything I've ever said in this discussion, though I wouldn't be surprised to see this topic rearing its ugly head again, because the notion that magnets require settling time doesn't appear to be settled and those floating the idea are unwilling to provide any objective evidence corroborating their claims.

I promise this is the last I will speak of it in this topic.

And neither are you.

Originally Posted by gregory I put one in an Invader and after three years it still hasn't fully settled in.

You never told us how you ascertained this.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I was not attempting to argue, I want to learn because I am on unfamiliar terrain. However, I do think a scope would be required as I don't think a meter alone can provide all the necessary data.

My second sentence was not directed at you.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Anyway, what is left for me is to ponder why I should be so worried about the veracity of wisdom gleaned from the internet.

You guys are welcome to dismiss everything I've ever said in this discussion,.

I don't dismiss anything. I have an open mind

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I fear people will be dissuaded from experimenting when they read this type of stuff...

...and believe it warrants objective proof.

No one will be dissuaded from experimenting. You are proof of that. If you think it needs proof, then you do the experiment, since you are the expert. Either put up or drop it.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I fear people will be dissuaded from experimenting when they read this type of stuff...

...and believe it warrants objective proof.

While it isn't the most fun or glamorous thing, I do know something about objective listening tests from my work as a trained listener in the development of audio products that rely on psychoacoustics.

Anyway, what is left for me is to ponder why I should be so worried about the veracity of wisdom gleaned from the internet.

You guys are welcome to dismiss everything I've ever said in this discussion, though I wouldn't be surprised to see this topic rearing its ugly head again, because the notion that magnets require settling time doesn't appear to be settled and those floating the idea are unwilling to provide any objective evidence corroborating their claims. Make no mistake, the burden of proof falls on those claiming that magnets require settling time. I am all for conducting tests and presenting data, though I have not experienced the phenomenon and as a data point, which doesn't do anything to advance the idea. Null results will not disprove the possibility that the phenomenon can be perceived. What is required is a positive result and I don't think it's worthwhile searching for unicorns (yes, I am cynical about it; I've seen far too many dubious claims about the subject of sound).

I promise this is the last I will speak of it in this topic.

This edit/addition makes you right does it ?
[ and so much for not saying any more on the subject. ]

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I do know something about objective listening tests from my work as a trained listener in the development of audio products that rely on psychoacoustics.

What exactly do you do, and what is the training you've received to qualify you as an "objective listener"?

Well?

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I can only ad that I made a point to discuss different magnets with Seymour.

He really doesn't seem fond of many different magnets. His preference is for A5 and A2 of varying gauss levels. He recognizes the value of ceramic, and may be warming up to A3, A4, and A8. It isn't his personal taste, as an expert who's made his life this art, but he answers the desires of players for a living.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I like all the mags. I have each kind in a pickup.

 

[SJ318]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Well:
Choose 1 guitar. 1 amp. No pedals, or reverb. Find a room that moisture is not fluctuating much. Temperature should be the same on all tests, within whatever range is acceptable. 65 degrees, +,- a few degrees. 70 degrees? You choose. Play the same chords and single notes every time. Same pick.
1. Put a new magnet of your choice in a pickup, record it as pristine as possible. Leave all gear alone in a room for one week. Do not change settings.
2. Come back in another week, do the same, put gear down, don't change any thing.
3. Come back for the 3rd week, do the same.
4. 4th week, you guessed it.
5. 6th week
6. 8th week.
You are now done. Listen to recording 1. Listen to recording 8. Any difference? If so, listen to all, feed them to a computer graph (I know that is incorrect, but however you say it in tech land). See where changes may have started.
To everyone, that seems all it would take to make reliable statements you can point to, even share with sound bites. Heck, change the strings every time also, to be really tight on the variables.
I guess Gregory bowed out, but would you need more than that? Heck, even I could do it. But I don't really want to or care.
And I am insufferably picky. But not about this. If you need 6 months, take up a wind instrument.
Steve Buffington

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Just buy a tape head demagnetiser and use it during magnet swaps ... remove magnet, demagnetise all the pickups' metal parts, then install the new magnet.

It saves all this flipping scientific debate and let's ya get on with playing the damned guitar.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I can only ad that I made a point to discuss different magnets with Seymour.

He really doesn't seem fond of many different magnets. His preference is for A5 and A2 of varying gauss levels. He recognizes the value of ceramic, and may be warming up to A3, A4, and A8. It isn't his personal taste, as an expert who's made his life this art, but he answers the desires of players for a living.

Which is basically what I said.

Thanks Joe!

 

[freefrog]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

If A3 and A4 weren't for pro musicians, would Lenny Kravitz use BKP Mules? Wouldn't the first Strats or P90's have been played only by bedroom hobbyists?...

AFAIK, A2 and A5 were the most accessible alloys when our Maestro Seymour has started his carreer. So he has designed his pickups to sound good with these mags. IF therefore he prefers them, it seems pretty logical to my feeble mind. )


It's true that IMHE, Duncan's don't sound really better with A3 or A4's. But it's also true that IMHE some pickups from other brands has revealed a whole new character once fitted with A4 or A3... All depends on the coils and on the magnetic circuit involved. The same pair of bars which makes a set of HB mediocre sounding will give a unique sweetness to a P90 or conversely. The same magnet which kills the tone of a machine wound pickup might warm up a hand wound model... Not to mention that two bars of the "same" AlNiCo from different foundries may impact the tone of a same pickup as if they were made of different alloys (!)

At least that's my own experience.

That's why I like to try many mags in a pickup or in a set, until I find the best sounding association. YMMV but can it really be considered as a question of professionnalism?

Regarding the question to know if mags need time to "settle"... Borrow a Gausmeter or Teslameter. Measure the most precisely possible the same pickup (in a guitar, under the strings) immediately after a mag change then later. Then build your own conclusions.

In such a case, BTW, it's worth to wonder if all pickups are supposed to react identically to magnetic fluctuations... Take a humbucker A heavily wax potted and including a "not too permeable" magnetic circuit (like the OEM HB's with fully loaded ceramic bars mounted by various brands).
Then take a pickup B, unpotted, with a low stray capacitance and fitted with low carbon steel magnetic parts.

Do you expect them to be identically deaf or sensitive to subtle changes?

Don't people have different experiences because they compare products supposedly similar and which are in fact noticeably different?

On the other hand, are adamant generalizations good for something else than sterile and endless online arguments? ;-)

Ending on these silly questions, I wish you all a nice day, full of music. )

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I'm glad Duncan offers the A4 Saturday Night Specials.

As some know, when Tom Holmes worked at Gibson he found purchase orders for the magnets Gibson ordered in 1959, and the majority of magnets that Gibson purchased in 1959 were Alnico 4. According to Tom.

So it makes sense to offer an A4 style pickup set.

I didn't get Duncan's opening description, "The Saturday Night Special humbucker set uses Alnico 4 magnets to deliver that authentic 70s sound", right away though.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/saturday-night-special-set

Maybe the reference is to Skynyrd's song from 1975, Saturday Night Special, and the '59 Les Paul Gary Rossington played.

That's probably it.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I'm glad Duncan offers the A4 Saturday Night Specials.

As some know, when Tom Holmes worked at Gibson he found purchase orders for the magnets Gibson ordered in 1959, and the majority of magnets that Gibson purchased in 1959 were Alnico 4. According to Tom.

So it makes sense to offer an A4 style pickup set.

I didn't get Duncan's opening description, "The Saturday Night Special humbucker set uses Alnico 4 magnets to deliver that authentic 70s sound", right away though.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/saturday-night-special-set

Maybe the reference is to Skynyrd's song from 1975, Saturday Night Special, and the '59 Les Paul Gary Rossington played.

That's probably it.

They may be offering them but nobody seems interested: one review by a Darthfinius; other than Duncan marketing only one YouTube from some Chinese guy and maybe another but it's not real clear.
So is there a market for these Lynard Skinner tone jobs?

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

^ No more or less than any other product that they put out that is new and fills a gap in the product line.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

To the ones that like to talk in behalf of Seymour about his liks/dislikes of magnets: at the Dallas International Guitar Festival, one blogger from Italy interviewed him, and when directly asked about what he thought was the "be-all-end-all" of all the p'ups he made, the answer was "the ones I currently use: the Eclair set".

For the record, the Eclair set is a newly revised version of the "Hot-Rod" set. A4 neck, A2 bridge.

There you have it, folks. He has evolved. He's currently using a magnet that apparently was only used by "non-professional, internet experts".



Here's another "non-professional, internet expert" using not one, but two Eclair neck p'ups (You know, the ones made with A4?) in his then newly-acquired LP, by own choice. He tells himself about it @ around 13:00.

Your Honor, I rest my case!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I've seen that video. Robben's a favorite of mine. That video is the reason I put A4 magnets in my Custom Shop Pearly Gates set and left them in for a month or three before returning them to stock.

That and the fact that I liked the A4 Dragon neck pickup that came in my '95 Custom 22. Not enough to keep it in there...but I liked it. That guitar has had a 59 set modded with Roughcast A5 for a long time now.

Regarding the A4 humbuckers I've owned I'll simply repeat what I've said before:

I like the sound but it's not a sound I would want every day, all the time, every time I pick up my guitar.

It's nice for a change of pace tho, especially if you have more than a couple of guitars.

I'm certain that Robbin Ford owns more than one guitar, and that Les Paul might be his only ax with an A4 pickup in it. If it's even still in there.

But I'll say again that I'm glad Duncan offers the A4 Saturday Night Special set.

As for A3: the weak sound doesn't appeal to me at all.

Not in humbuckers, not in Strat pickups and not in Nocaster pickups.

It is simply not a sound I hear in my head when I'm thinking about music, and when I have had A3 pickups in my PRS, Strat or Tele I could not get any of my favorite sounds out of those guitars.