Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
- Thread starter GuitarStv
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GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
Truss rod was in the mail as expected. I clamped one end of it and made sure it worked as expected before doing anything else . . . because it would sure suck to get everything back together and realize it all has to come apart again.
So, this should have been super easy and taken no time at all . . . pull old rod out, push new rod in but the new truss rod was just a hint larger in width and depth, and has a nut that was 5 mm longer than the original. Which led to an 'Oh ****' moment before I realized that I had to take the nut off to fit the thing in (not a problem pulling it out with the old nut broken off of course). I did a test fit, and the channel needed a little filing to accommodate it.
Even then, it ended up a very (very) tight fit. There's absolutely no need to add wood filler with this rod and if the reason for epoxy is to fill gaps I don't think there's a point trying to squeeze a couple drops of epoxy in there. There are no gaps big enough to worry about. I was a little worried that the allen key adjustment nut was going to be too long and poke out the bottom of the soundhole, but it just barely tucks away OK. I've put a little oil on the threads of this nut, and it turns very smoothly right now. Should I use some grease on it, or is the oil good enough?
Guitar with broken truss rod:
Truss rod removed and new/old comparison:
Truss rod replaced:
I'm still trying to think of the best way to hold everything together while gluing the fretboard back on.
Truss rod was in the mail as expected. I clamped one end of it and made sure it worked as expected before doing anything else . . . because it would sure suck to get everything back together and realize it all has to come apart again.
So, this should have been super easy and taken no time at all . . . pull old rod out, push new rod in but the new truss rod was just a hint larger in width and depth, and has a nut that was 5 mm longer than the original. Which led to an 'Oh ****' moment before I realized that I had to take the nut off to fit the thing in (not a problem pulling it out with the old nut broken off of course). I did a test fit, and the channel needed a little filing to accommodate it.
Even then, it ended up a very (very) tight fit. There's absolutely no need to add wood filler with this rod and if the reason for epoxy is to fill gaps I don't think there's a point trying to squeeze a couple drops of epoxy in there. There are no gaps big enough to worry about. I was a little worried that the allen key adjustment nut was going to be too long and poke out the bottom of the soundhole, but it just barely tucks away OK. I've put a little oil on the threads of this nut, and it turns very smoothly right now. Should I use some grease on it, or is the oil good enough?
Guitar with broken truss rod:
Truss rod removed and new/old comparison:
Truss rod replaced:
I'm still trying to think of the best way to hold everything together while gluing the fretboard back on.
ehdwuld
A Ficus
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
I got faith in ya
You got a degree in something right?
You can do it
Slap that fretboard on and pray
Got a pin nailer?
I got this brad nailer that shoots brads the size of small sewing needles
It would be perfect for this
I got faith in ya
You got a degree in something right?
You can do it
Slap that fretboard on and pray
Got a pin nailer?
I got this brad nailer that shoots brads the size of small sewing needles
It would be perfect for this
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
There's actually a slight groove at the heel of the fretboard in the finish that feels like it will hold the fretboard in place even with glue, and I can put the nut back into the groove so I've got something at the headstock to check as well. I was sanding all the remaining glue off the fretboard and neck last night and then did some dry fitting. You can feel this groove when you're in the right place sliding the board over the neck and I think that between the groove and feeling the edges of the fretboard/neck this should be enough to get good positioning. I'll probably keep a couple zip ties at hand too in case they're necessary.
As far as clamping goes, I found a pretty straight strip of wood (about 1x2) that'll cover about 80% of the fretboard in the garage last night. My plan is to put a few layers of shop rags beneath it as padding and then very lightly clamp that to the part of the fretboad nearest the nut. This should leave the very edges of the fretboard free and give me lots of room to slide things around and adjust if they're a little out of place, as well as wipe off excess glue as it squeezes out. Then I'll probably use a seperate stubby bit of 2x4 to clamp the last little bit of the fretboard next to the sound hole.
I couldn't find too many youtube videos, but this one seems to show exactly what I want to do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjbz_SZAbrw&t=1041s - at about 5:00 he shows the two pieces of 2x4 that he's clamping down on, and then he does the actual clamping after gluing at about 11:14. (He has some fancy bits of leather to use as padding over the frets, but I'll have to make do with shop towels or rags or something. Fortunately the frets on this acoustic are pretty small so I don't think it's going to put weird pressure on anything doing this). He's using the blocks to put some backbow on the neck, which I won't have to do, my guitars neck is pretty straight so I think just one straight piece to clamp will work better for me.
One thing that playing new acoustics at the guitar shop really drove home for me is that the frets on mine acoustic are pretty bad. They've been dressed a bunch of times, and were pretty small when they were new. Depending on how well the fret board gluing goes, I might try my hand at a fret job. (I've got three guitars and a mandolin that are borderline unplayable because of the state of the frets right now, and one guitar that is playable but has very deep grooves on the first 12 frets under the G B and e strings. It's something I need to learn how to do sooner or later . . . and I've been contemplating it for years now but haven't worked up the courage.)
We'll see how morale is after the gluing.
Also, I had a giant stockpile of Dean Markley Alchemy acoustic strings that I liked but am all out . . . and they seem to no longer be made. ****. That's annoying. I preferred them to Elixirs. Any chance that anyone knows of similar sounding strings that last a long time?
There's actually a slight groove at the heel of the fretboard in the finish that feels like it will hold the fretboard in place even with glue, and I can put the nut back into the groove so I've got something at the headstock to check as well. I was sanding all the remaining glue off the fretboard and neck last night and then did some dry fitting. You can feel this groove when you're in the right place sliding the board over the neck and I think that between the groove and feeling the edges of the fretboard/neck this should be enough to get good positioning. I'll probably keep a couple zip ties at hand too in case they're necessary.
As far as clamping goes, I found a pretty straight strip of wood (about 1x2) that'll cover about 80% of the fretboard in the garage last night. My plan is to put a few layers of shop rags beneath it as padding and then very lightly clamp that to the part of the fretboad nearest the nut. This should leave the very edges of the fretboard free and give me lots of room to slide things around and adjust if they're a little out of place, as well as wipe off excess glue as it squeezes out. Then I'll probably use a seperate stubby bit of 2x4 to clamp the last little bit of the fretboard next to the sound hole.
I couldn't find too many youtube videos, but this one seems to show exactly what I want to do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjbz_SZAbrw&t=1041s - at about 5:00 he shows the two pieces of 2x4 that he's clamping down on, and then he does the actual clamping after gluing at about 11:14. (He has some fancy bits of leather to use as padding over the frets, but I'll have to make do with shop towels or rags or something. Fortunately the frets on this acoustic are pretty small so I don't think it's going to put weird pressure on anything doing this). He's using the blocks to put some backbow on the neck, which I won't have to do, my guitars neck is pretty straight so I think just one straight piece to clamp will work better for me.
One thing that playing new acoustics at the guitar shop really drove home for me is that the frets on mine acoustic are pretty bad. They've been dressed a bunch of times, and were pretty small when they were new. Depending on how well the fret board gluing goes, I might try my hand at a fret job. (I've got three guitars and a mandolin that are borderline unplayable because of the state of the frets right now, and one guitar that is playable but has very deep grooves on the first 12 frets under the G B and e strings. It's something I need to learn how to do sooner or later . . . and I've been contemplating it for years now but haven't worked up the courage.)
We'll see how morale is after the gluing.
Also, I had a giant stockpile of Dean Markley Alchemy acoustic strings that I liked but am all out . . . and they seem to no longer be made. ****. That's annoying. I preferred them to Elixirs. Any chance that anyone knows of similar sounding strings that last a long time?
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
if you want the fretboard to line up perfectly with the neck when glueing, why not:
- pull out the frets
- dry-clamp the board to the neck
- drill 3 pilot holes through the board, in the neck for a few millimeters, for locating pins
- glue the board
- sand the board level (kinda have to do that anyway, imho)
- fret the neck, do the usual trickery
* done *
Just a thought.
if you want the fretboard to line up perfectly with the neck when glueing, why not:
- pull out the frets
- dry-clamp the board to the neck
- drill 3 pilot holes through the board, in the neck for a few millimeters, for locating pins
- glue the board
- sand the board level (kinda have to do that anyway, imho)
- fret the neck, do the usual trickery
* done *
Just a thought.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
. . . very ****ing hard! It has been beaten into submission though.
(Long story short, none of those clamps are clamping too hard . . . I just wanted to try and spread out the pressure as much as possible).
I'm getting a drink. We'll see how it turned out tomorrow.
. . . very ****ing hard! It has been beaten into submission though.
(Long story short, none of those clamps are clamping too hard . . . I just wanted to try and spread out the pressure as much as possible).
I'm getting a drink. We'll see how it turned out tomorrow.
nexion218
New member
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
I am in total awe and envy man... Terrific skills and perseverance! If I could hit the reset button, I sure as hell would avoid this molecular biology BS I studied and learn how to repair and build intruments instead... Maybe next time!
I am in total awe and envy man... Terrific skills and perseverance! If I could hit the reset button, I sure as hell would avoid this molecular biology BS I studied and learn how to repair and build intruments instead... Maybe next time!
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
My software engineer courses haven't been much help on this front either. Fortunately my dad always made sure that I helped whenever he needed to fix something. And since dad was pretty tight with money, that meant every time that anything in our house broke.
Also, probably best to hold the awe and envy until we know if the guitar is going to be binned or not.
I am in total awe and envy man... Terrific skills and perseverance! If I could hit the reset button, I sure as hell would avoid this molecular biology BS I studied and learn how to repair and build intruments instead... Maybe next time!
My software engineer courses haven't been much help on this front either. Fortunately my dad always made sure that I helped whenever he needed to fix something. And since dad was pretty tight with money, that meant every time that anything in our house broke.
Also, probably best to hold the awe and envy until we know if the guitar is going to be binned or not.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
OK, so . . . why was this very hard?
I thought that I had put a reasonable amount of glue on the neck/fretboard before aligning the pieces and clamping. Instead I had ended up using way the **** too much. So, as soon as pressure was applied on the two boards, there was lots of glue leaking out of the seams, onto the neck and top of the guitar of the guitar. So there was a whole bunch of panicked wiping that needed to go on . . . for what seemed like forever. I did eventually get the guitar top and neck pretty close to spotless, but it involved a lot of swearing. The actual alignment part wasn't too bad. I mentioned before, but there was a little bit of a groove at the heel of the guitar and I could feel when it was in properly. The (excess) glue did make things very slippery, and I accidentally knocked the fretboard out of alignment a couple times while setting up the clamps but that part was pretty straight forward.
So, looking at the neck this morning there is good news and bad news.
The bad news is that between frets 12 - 15 on the bass side of the neck, the fretboard is not as tight against the neck as I'd like. It looks like there's about a half mm of space in this area. Most of it is filled with glue, but there are a couple small gaps. Difficult to measure exactly how large. Maybe half a millimeter tall, and a mm wide - deep enough that I can slide a thin sewing needle in about a mm before I hit obstruction. (Probably could have avoided this by cranking down really, really tight on the clamps.)
The good news is that the whole treble side of the neck, and the bass side from frets 1-9 all the joining looks about as good as I could hope for. Very tight, no gap to speak of. The glued area around the soundhole and on the top actually looks better than it originally did. The fretboard and neck are both still straight. The alignment of the fretboard to the neck seems to be perfect.
So, I'm not sure if the presence of the gap means I need to remove the fretboard from the neck and do the whole thing again, or if I should just pop some wood filler in there and call it a day.
Also, up at frets 1-7 where everything seems to have been be clamped and set perfectly, there's still a noticeable line that you can feel with your fingers where I use the exacto blade to cut between the binding and wood. Should I just run some fine grain sandpaper over the area until it's perfectly smooth, and then do something to refinish it? Or is there a better way?
. . . very ****ing hard! It has been beaten into submission though.
OK, so . . . why was this very hard?
I thought that I had put a reasonable amount of glue on the neck/fretboard before aligning the pieces and clamping. Instead I had ended up using way the **** too much. So, as soon as pressure was applied on the two boards, there was lots of glue leaking out of the seams, onto the neck and top of the guitar of the guitar. So there was a whole bunch of panicked wiping that needed to go on . . . for what seemed like forever. I did eventually get the guitar top and neck pretty close to spotless, but it involved a lot of swearing. The actual alignment part wasn't too bad. I mentioned before, but there was a little bit of a groove at the heel of the guitar and I could feel when it was in properly. The (excess) glue did make things very slippery, and I accidentally knocked the fretboard out of alignment a couple times while setting up the clamps but that part was pretty straight forward.
So, looking at the neck this morning there is good news and bad news.
The bad news is that between frets 12 - 15 on the bass side of the neck, the fretboard is not as tight against the neck as I'd like. It looks like there's about a half mm of space in this area. Most of it is filled with glue, but there are a couple small gaps. Difficult to measure exactly how large. Maybe half a millimeter tall, and a mm wide - deep enough that I can slide a thin sewing needle in about a mm before I hit obstruction. (Probably could have avoided this by cranking down really, really tight on the clamps.)
The good news is that the whole treble side of the neck, and the bass side from frets 1-9 all the joining looks about as good as I could hope for. Very tight, no gap to speak of. The glued area around the soundhole and on the top actually looks better than it originally did. The fretboard and neck are both still straight. The alignment of the fretboard to the neck seems to be perfect.
So, I'm not sure if the presence of the gap means I need to remove the fretboard from the neck and do the whole thing again, or if I should just pop some wood filler in there and call it a day.
Also, up at frets 1-7 where everything seems to have been be clamped and set perfectly, there's still a noticeable line that you can feel with your fingers where I use the exacto blade to cut between the binding and wood. Should I just run some fine grain sandpaper over the area until it's perfectly smooth, and then do something to refinish it? Or is there a better way?
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
If it were mine I would not be satisfied with that result and I would removed it and clean it up and try again.
Remember that the fretboard is radiused.
A flat board on a radiused surface may not be the best way to evenly distribute the clamping forces.
You might be wise to invest in some strap-clamps.
Additionally, you mentioned using a light clamping force.
I am of the opinion that as long as you are not crushing wood and leaving scars, there is no such thing as too much clamping force.
If it were mine I would not be satisfied with that result and I would removed it and clean it up and try again.
Remember that the fretboard is radiused.
A flat board on a radiused surface may not be the best way to evenly distribute the clamping forces.
You might be wise to invest in some strap-clamps.
Additionally, you mentioned using a light clamping force.
I am of the opinion that as long as you are not crushing wood and leaving scars, there is no such thing as too much clamping force.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
Well I didn't really have much time to look at her this morning. I'll take another check this evening and then decide if the iron has to come out again, but I think you may be right.
The cost of this repair in incidental expenses (alcohol) is quite significant.
Well I didn't really have much time to look at her this morning. I'll take another check this evening and then decide if the iron has to come out again, but I think you may be right.
The cost of this repair in incidental expenses (alcohol) is quite significant.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
Well, I decided that the tiny gap was going to bug me last night.
Got the fretboard off again. Time consuming, but not too much hassle. Sanded all the glue off the fretboard and neck again. Time consuming, and a hassle. Then I was thinking about the best way to apply pressure evenly all the way around. I did a couple test fittings, and everything looked good again. I ended gluing some thin strips of wood to the edges of the 1x3 that I was using to apply pressure to the board so it made an upside down 'U' shape. I was hoping that concentrating the pressure on the edges would prevent any gaps from opening.
So, I painted the glue back on, slid the fretboard into position, and eased on a couple clamps . . . double checked that everything was aligned and then put the rest of the clamps in position. I applied more clamp pressure to close the edge gap, And it just didn't close at all. I cranked down a little harder on the clamp, and the edges started to close up and the glue to squeeze out. Then as it was sitting there I heard a loud cracking sound from somewhere. Didn't sound good.
I had never noticed before, but the neck seems to have been made out of two glued pieces of mahogany, and the must have been stressing that seam somehow. Anyway, it broke apart raggedly. So, this repair has moved well beyond what I'm capable of. Sadly, I've moved her remains out to the garbage can. (Stripped the tuners, nut, and bridge pins for some other guitars though.) So pretty bummed out at the result but I figure at least I gave her a fighting chance and learned some stuff.
Man, I wish I'd thought of doing this last night!
Well, I decided that the tiny gap was going to bug me last night.
Got the fretboard off again. Time consuming, but not too much hassle. Sanded all the glue off the fretboard and neck again. Time consuming, and a hassle. Then I was thinking about the best way to apply pressure evenly all the way around. I did a couple test fittings, and everything looked good again. I ended gluing some thin strips of wood to the edges of the 1x3 that I was using to apply pressure to the board so it made an upside down 'U' shape. I was hoping that concentrating the pressure on the edges would prevent any gaps from opening.
So, I painted the glue back on, slid the fretboard into position, and eased on a couple clamps . . . double checked that everything was aligned and then put the rest of the clamps in position. I applied more clamp pressure to close the edge gap, And it just didn't close at all. I cranked down a little harder on the clamp, and the edges started to close up and the glue to squeeze out. Then as it was sitting there I heard a loud cracking sound from somewhere. Didn't sound good.
I had never noticed before, but the neck seems to have been made out of two glued pieces of mahogany, and the must have been stressing that seam somehow. Anyway, it broke apart raggedly. So, this repair has moved well beyond what I'm capable of. Sadly, I've moved her remains out to the garbage can. (Stripped the tuners, nut, and bridge pins for some other guitars though.) So pretty bummed out at the result but I figure at least I gave her a fighting chance and learned some stuff.
Man, I wish I'd thought of doing this last night!
ehdwuld
A Ficus
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
I had become emotionally invested in your project
I am truly saddened by the results
And how could you just dump her in the garage bin like so much trash
The fence post was waiting
It is extremely cathartic
I had become emotionally invested in your project
I am truly saddened by the results
And how could you just dump her in the garage bin like so much trash
The fence post was waiting
It is extremely cathartic
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
Could do a viking funeral on the BBQ if that makes you happier. In retrospect, I really should have just filled the tiny gap in the neck after the first gluing and learned to live with it.
If it makes you feel any better, I've got three borderline unplayable practice guitars lined up to learn to re-fret on. Will post pics whenever that project gets started.
Could do a viking funeral on the BBQ if that makes you happier.
In retrospect, I really should have just filled the tiny gap in the neck after the first gluing and learned to live with it.If it makes you feel any better, I've got three borderline unplayable practice guitars lined up to learn to re-fret on. Will post pics whenever that project gets started.
ehdwuld
A Ficus
Re: Extreme acoustic guitar surgery - watch me destroy a beloved instrument!
Hey
In the short term
Look at this
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Epipho...ird-Performer-PRO-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar.gc
I have the non electric version of the Epiphone Hummingbird
It plays awesome
The shorter scale and slim D neck profile makes it play like an electric
And naw the grill would be too much
My brother and I, when we were seven or so , roasted marshmallows and hotdogs over a broken up baby bed
The varnish and lead paint flavored every thing on that grill from then on
Bleck
But yes next up
Hey
In the short term
Look at this
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Epipho...ird-Performer-PRO-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar.gc
I have the non electric version of the Epiphone Hummingbird
It plays awesome
The shorter scale and slim D neck profile makes it play like an electric
And naw the grill would be too much
My brother and I, when we were seven or so , roasted marshmallows and hotdogs over a broken up baby bed
The varnish and lead paint flavored every thing on that grill from then on
Bleck
But yes next up
