F Dorian in the key of C?

[kelvin]

Today I tried to analyze a song which is in the key of C.

Over/During the F Minor chord (before it goes to the G Major chord) :
A melody with these notes were played :
E-flat, D, C, B-flat, A-flat, G and F.

I realized that those are the notes from F Dorian.

It sounded so great.
I wonder what the composer was thinking.
Why could : E-flat, B-flat and A-flat (notes that are not in the key of C)
appear in a song in C? :question:



The A-flat/G# is from the A harmonic minor (6.th degree of C) :
That's why E Major, F Minor could be used in C.

The E-flat is from the A minor blues pentatonic,
since A minor is related to the key of C,
that note could be used?

Thank you.
(My main question is still there with the "question icon")

 

[seafoamer]

Re: F Dorian in the key of C?

The simple answer is: That part of the song IS NOT in the key of C anymore when it goes to an Fm chord.

When a song in the key of C goes an Fm chord, it is considered a (key) modulation, and the correct "chord scale" changes as a result. Either an F dorian, or even more common, an F melodic minor scale "can, should, or is usually" used.

 

[kelvin]

Re: F Dorian in the key of C?

thank you seafoarmer ...

but does anybody else have anything to say?

for example from a chorus, with these chord progression :
C, A, Dm, Fm.
it even has an "A major" chord.
so we can use all kind of chords in the key of C?

 

[Xeromus]

Re: F Dorian in the key of C?

what seafoamer said

plus sometime you should learn the roman numeral chords that correspond to the scale degrees within the scales and how the modes identify with each. In C major there are common types of triads that would be played on each scale degree, and different quality of 7ths. For instance in C major if you encounter a Bminor flat five (or half diminished) you would know that B Locrian would be appropriate (one of the only times too) because the locrian mode corresponds with the vii chord in a major progression. You can usually tell what key a piece is in by looking at what the dominant chords are V or vii. Another textbook example: Autumn leaves is in the key of G major and starts on an A minor 7 chord. It would be appropriate in that case to start off in A dorian since it corresponds to the ii chord which is the 2nd interval in C major.

So to answer your question, use your ears, they will tell you when a note is "outside" or "wrong". There are no rights or wrongs in music, but there are time honored rules and certain notes and chords that will sound very dissonant in a given progression. For that reason you can't use ANY chords in a C major progression, but you can use chords and notes that share the same notes as the progression goes along or pattern of intervals.

There is a key modulation when it goes into F minor and you should adjust accordingly. If it were an F major chord in C major it would be a IV and correspond to the Lydian mode.

If I'm wrong on any of this guys, feel free to point out my errors. I self admittedly hate my theory classes and struggle with them. Right now we're part writing using pedal, cadential, and passing 6/4's. It's not fun.

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: F Dorian in the key of C?

Xeromus is dead on with his elaboration of seafomer said earlier..... Try to learn keys and scales as they relate to each other by intervals. One thing that occurs commonly in music is called tritone substitution. Simply put, you are borrowing chords from a related key. For example the V/V, or the 5 of the 5. The following chart will help.....

I ii iii IV V vi vii
C D E F G A B
F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F

The Roman numerals repersent the scale degree for the key. Capital numerals are major and lowercase numerals are minors. The V can also have the dominant 7 added, and the vii is the half-diminished, Meaning the 5th of the vii is 1/2 step flat. In the key of C, that would be Bmin7b5, or a half-diminished Bmin7. The second row starts on the 4th degree of the songs tonic. Now, the I is an F and the scale follows theoretical rules from there. The third row is the key of G. Notice that the F is a minor! Now.....

The I, IV, V of C is C, F, and G.
The I, IV, V of F is F, B, and C.
The I, IV, V of G is G, C, and D.

In the key of G, we pointed out that the vii is Fminor. If you were in the key of C and played the IV, and then flattened the 3rd of that F Major, it would become Fminor. By sliding up to G, and continuing the I, IV, V progression, you have completed a musical sentence that was complex enough to entertain, but not so complicated that you couldnt pull it off with ease.

Now, try it.....
Play a C, G, F chord progression twice, but on the second time, play another measure of the F only with the minor quality and then slide up to G and start the new progression of G, D, and C. Pretty cool little trick for your brand new bag, huh? Hope this helped! merry Christmas!