Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

[Lewguitar]

If I remember right, CBS bought Fender in '65 and silverface Fenders hit the market in '68.

In Forrest White's book, Inside Fender, he says that the quality stayed the same at first...then declined sharply. Does "at first" mean '65, '66 and '67? (Those amps are still blackface amps.)

Did the quality start going south in 68 with the new silverface look? Those early cabs are still solid pine and fingerjoined in the corners.

Or does the quality drop in '71 or so with the introduction of the cheapie Fender cabinets that are no longer solid pine and no longer fingerjoined in the corners?

IMO, Fender/CBS amps through at least '67 are the equal of the pre CBS amps.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

CBS did buy Fender in 1965 so if you have a 1966 Super Reverb it is a CBS era Fender amp but it's just as good at a 1964 Super Reverb...they didn't make any changes until the Silverface amps but they didn't even change the earliest silverface amps either. I have owned a few very early Silverface Fenders, the ones with the chrome border around the grill and some of the very early ones also have the black lines on the silver face as well...those amps still have solid fingerjoined pine cabs with floating baffels and those amps were produced between 1968 and late 1969 best I can tell so I would clearly say that around 1970 and for sure by 1971 the cabs had surly started to take a serious nose dive in quality and construction. IMO, the guts of the amps weren't far behind!

Im gonna put the quality of CBS amps made until 1969 up to equal to pre CBS amps.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

CBS did buy Fender in 1965 so if you have a 1966 Super Reverb it is a CBS era Fender amp but it's just as good at a 1964 Super Reverb...they didn't make any changes until the Silverface amps but they didn't even change the earliest silverface amps either. I have owned a few very early Silverface Fenders, the ones with the chrome border around the grill and some of the very early ones also have the black lines on the silver face as well...those amps still have solid fingerjoined pine cabs with floating baffels and those amps were produced between 1968 and late 1969 best I can tell so I would clearly say that around 1970 and for sure by 1971 the cabs had surly started to take a serious nose dive in quality and construction. IMO, the guts of the amps weren't far behind!

The reason I asked Christian is because I just bought a '68 Deluxe Reverb chassis and the original reverb pan and bag for $650! (laugh!) No cabinet.

It's just the chassis and reverb but 100% stock and I'm going to put it in a solid pine, fingerjoined DR cab made for two 10's.

I'll put a pair of Weber 10's (Ted's equivalent of '66 Jensen C10N's but with "Q" cones to make them sound looser and older) in there. The trannys for this particular DR date from '67 so it should be just about the same as my blackface DR's. Lew

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

The reason I asked Christian is because I just took some of the money you paid me for the '62 Deluxe and bought a '68 Deluxe Reverb chassis for $650! (laugh!) It's just a chassis but 100% stock and I'm going to put it in a solid pine, fingerjoined DR cab made for two 10's. I'll put a pair of Weber C10N's with "Q" cones in there. Lew

Very cool!!! It'll be a mini Vibrolux!

I LOVE IT!

I'll tell you this, I have owned over the years several late 60's (SF era) Fender amps and they were all great...even if you had gotten the correct cab with a 1968 model it woudl have been fine...it would have still had a crappy baffle but it woudl have been floating and easy to change.

The earliest ones have very thin black lines running up and down on the silverface between the channels and where it says Deluxe Reverb Amp, also a 1968 model still says Deluxe Reverb Amp and not just Deluxe Reverb.

The result is that a 1968 Deluixe Reverb is just s great as a 1964 through a 1967 BF Deluxe Reverb and I think with two 10's it'll be a great gigging package to work with and will sound great oposite your old 1x12 BF Deluxe Reverb!

Do you know where you'll get a cab yet???

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

Very cool!!! It'll be a mini Vibrolux!

I LOVE IT!

I'll tell you this, I have owned over the years several late 60's (SF era) Fender amps and they were all great...even if you had gotten the correct cab with a 1968 model it woudl have been fine...it would have still had a crappy baffle but it woudl have been floating and easy to change.

The earliest ones have very thin black lines running up and down on the silverface between the channels and where it says Deluxe Reverb Amp, also a 1968 model still says Deluxe Reverb Amp and not just Deluxe Reverb.

The result is that a 1968 Deluixe Reverb is just s great as a 1964 through a 1967 BF Deluxe Reverb and I think with two 10's it'll be a great gigging package to work with and will sound great oposite your old 1x12 BF Deluxe Reverb!

Do you know where you'll get a cab yet???

I can get one at wholesale from Mojo...but I've also been looking at some others. If you do a Google search for "Deluxe Reverb Cabinet" there's a lot of makers that pop up who make a solid pine, finger joined cab. There's a guy in your neck of the woods: The Vintage Sound. Know anything about him or have any recomendations? I want the best...naturally! (laugh!)

BTW, I'll be going with 16 ohm 10's so I'll have a 8 ohm load when they are wired together in parallel. That's why I'm not using any of my old speakers...they're all 8 ohms.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

I can get one at wholesale from Mojo...but I've also been looking at some others. If you do a Google search for "Deluxe Reverb Cabinet" there's a lot of makers that pop up who make a solid pine, finger joined cab. There's a guy in your neck of the woods: The Vintage Sound. Know anything about him or have any recomendations? I want the best...naturally! (laugh!)
BTW, I'll be going with 16 ohm 10's so I'll have a 8 ohm load when they are wired together in parallel. That's why I'm not using any of my old speakers...they're all 8 ohms.

I assumed you;d be doing 2 16 ohm 10's...thats the way to do it in that situation. It's a shame you can't use some of your old Jensens but it'll be fine that way and that will also save you from pushing some of your old speakers hard for gigging.

I don't know anything about The Vintage Sound...I have a guy in mind already for the 62 Deluxe cab. I contacted Mojo and they wanted a mint to do that cab...

 

[Curly]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

Lew,
you might check heritage for the cab. I've gotten some pretty decent quotes from them.
they are busy though, and take a while to respond to emails

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

Lew,
you might check heritage for the cab. I've gotten some pretty decent quotes from them.
they are busy though, and take a while to respond to emails

Thanks Gary, I'm leaning towards using JD Newell...Christian recommended him and we've beem communicating and his prices are very reasonable. Lew

 

[Bludave]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

If I remember right, CBS bought Fender in '65 and silverface Fenders hit the market in '68.

In Forrest White's book, Inside Fender, he says that the quality stayed the same at first...then declined sharply. Does "at first" mean '65, '66 and '67? (Those amps are still blackface amps.)

Did the quality start going south in 68 with the new silverface look? Those early cabs are still solid pine and fingerjoined in the corners.

Or does the quality drop in '71 or so with the introduction of the cheapie Fender cabinets that are no longer solid pine and no longer fingerjoined in the corners?

IMO, Fender/CBS amps through at least '67 are the equal of the pre CBS amps.

I'm not a history expert on the Fender era or Cbs, but I believe you are right that CBS took over in 65. But I have a 67 DR that is a SF. I have seen a few other silver face 67's also. So when the switch was made from black to silver I think varys on the models. I have never seen a SR with a SF any earlier than 68, so its confusing to me, or I don't have all the dates right, but when I bought my DR the guy I bought it from who is an amp tech and I trust told me it was a first series SF (1967). My SR is a SF that I bought close to 20 years ago and it is a SF(1968). I personally don't feel that the SF amps are bad amps until the Master volume era, which I think was 73(?), not sure. Prior to the MV amps I think most silver face amps are suprisingly good. In fact I have played thru a few that rival some black faces. So I think it comes down to individual amps, and the model.

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

I'll tell you this, I have owned over the years several late 60's (SF era) Fender amps and they were all great...even if you had gotten the correct cab with a 1968 model it woudl have been fine...it would have still had a crappy baffle but it would have been floating and easy to change.

Christian - what do you mean by "crappy baffle"? When did Fender start using a material other than plywood for the speaker baffle?

I've recently seen a Princeton Reverb that has a Blackface faceplate & backplate, but the baffle is made of MDF (or something similar) - not plywood. (It still appears to be a floating baffle.) We're trying to date the amp and there's another anomoly - one of the speaker codes indicates manufacture in a year ending in "3" but the faceplate refers to "A Div. of Columbia Record Distribution" so it's not a 1964 amp. Also, the sticker on the back of the Jensen C10Q is smaller and blue & silver.

Thanks for your thoughts on this,

Chip

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

I'm not a history expert on the Fender era or Cbs, but I believe you are right that CBS took over in 65. But I have a 67 DR that is a SF. I have seen a few other silver face 67's also. So when the switch was made from black to silver I think varys on the models. I have never seen a SR with a SF any earlier than 68, so its confusing to me, or I don't have all the dates right, but when I bought my DR the guy I bought it from who is an amp tech and I trust told me it was a first series SF (1967). My SR is a SF that I bought close to 20 years ago and it is a SF(1968). I personally don't feel that the SF amps are bad amps until the Master volume era, which I think was 73(?), not sure. Prior to the MV amps I think most silver face amps are suprisingly good. In fact I have played thru a few that rival some black faces. So I think it comes down to individual amps, and the model.

The cabinets are cheaply made by '73 or '74...no longer always solid pine, and glued and stapled together rather than being fingerjoined and glued in the corners. But some amps from '73 and '74 sound as good as or better than thier blackface counterparts. The non-master volume Super Reverb from '73 or '74 can be rebuilt to blackface specs or with a Marshall tone stack and sound as good or better than any blackface SR I've owned.

Even the master volume models can be modded back to blackface specs and sound really good...but what to do with the master volume control/front panel hole? It's useless and robs tone on those amps. I've filled it with a negative feedback control...that works nicely.

Lew

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

Christian - what do you mean by "crappy baffle"? When did Fender start using a material other than plywood for the speaker baffle?
I've recently seen a Princeton Reverb that has a Blackface faceplate & backplate, but the baffle is made of MDF (or something similar) - not plywood. (It still appears to be a floating baffle.) We're trying to date the amp and there's another anomoly - one of the speaker codes indicates manufacture in a year ending in "3" but the faceplate refers to "A Div. of Columbia Record Distribution" so it's not a 1964 amp. Also, the sticker on the back of the Jensen C10Q is smaller and blue & silver.
Thanks for your thoughts on this,
Chip

Chip,

Tweed Fenders used plywood baffle's but by the time thay made it to Blackface they had switched to MDF...now they were still floating baffles but they were for sure MDF, not in 1968 and 1969 and some of 1970 they were still floating MDF baffles by 1971 they had started glueing them in place and they had started not fingerjoining the cabs together and using lesser quality woods in the cabs as well. As for when Fender made the switch Im not sure...I know that ALL BLackface Fenders had MDF baffles but since they are floating it's so easy to change them out! IM not sure about the early 60's brown/blond amps but I think that they had plywood baffles too, if thats the case the change happened in 1964.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

Christian - what do you mean by "crappy baffle"? When did Fender start using a material other than plywood for the speaker baffle?

I've recently seen a Princeton Reverb that has a Blackface faceplate & backplate, but the baffle is made of MDF (or something similar) - not plywood. (It still appears to be a floating baffle.) We're trying to date the amp and there's another anomoly - one of the speaker codes indicates manufacture in a year ending in "3" but the faceplate refers to "A Div. of Columbia Record Distribution" so it's not a 1964 amp. Also, the sticker on the back of the Jensen C10Q is smaller and blue & silver.

Thanks for your thoughts on this,

Chip

Hi Chip!

Blackface amps from the 60's and 70's use a particle board baffle. Since it's only screwed to the cabinet on the sides and not the top and bottem, it floats and resonates and contributes to the resonance and tone of the amp.

Around '73 Fender/CBS changed the cabinet design. They stopped fingerjoining the corners and so adopted a differant method of holding the cabinets together: they mortised the speaker baffle into the sides of the cabinet and into the bottem panel in a 1/2" wide rout. Then they glued and stapled the whole thing together. This speaker baffle would NOT be a floating baffle because the sides and bottem of the panel and mortised into the cabinet and cannot flex or resonate.

If these cabs are taken on the road for a few years, they loosen up quickly and the glue joints fail...the old style fingerjoined cab design of the 50's and 60's is better.

Lew

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: Fender Blackface to CBS Silverface...when did quality decline?

Lew & Christian -

Thanks very much for the education!

Chip