Fender Eliminates MSRP

Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

Something else that needs to go is music store's 'BIG SALE' catalogs that advertise '30% off' and it's based on 30% off MSRP, so everything in it is at the same price it always is. I am so sick of those fake sales. If nothing else, that a reason to get rid of MSRP. It's abused. How about the big music stores actually lowering prices when they have 'sales'?

That is pretty comical. It's great to see that in a catalog or in person at a store. But it's fun to pretend, isn't it? Pretend we're having a big sale! Everything in the store! *Except that monumentally long list of every single brand you've ever heard of, including ones you didn't realize they carried. (Just to be safe.) C'mon. If prices are pretty much stuck like that cop car in the wet concrete, why pretend? 30% off any item!* (*See website for details. Because some exclusions apply. Cholo.)

I give the stores a lot of leeway. I don't even mind the "price fixing". But at least be upfront.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

You seem casually dismissive of my entire post without offering any specifics. Maybe I'm making connections because I've actually been on both sides of the retail counter. You expect cheaper gear. How do you expect it to get cheaper? Who's going to take a haircut for you?

I was specifically only talking about the same products and giving retailers the freedom to price them any way they want, after they freely negotiate a price from the factory.

Nobody except you brought in other products or changing the products to be cheaper to make. I don't see how you think any unusual pressure to do the latter comes in that isn't there already.

On the contrary, instead of "forcing" GC to have a high margin between what they pay and what they get, and hence leaving them no choice but to invest it in expensive locations and marketing (the latter being of no benefit to the consumer) you now leave the consumer with more money in their pockets. That as such doesn't create pressure at the manufacturing end.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

I was specifically only talking about the same products and giving retailers the freedom to price them any way they want, after they freely negotiate a price from the factory.

How freely do you think most dealers negotiate those prices? You've already pointed out that smaller dealers don't have the buying power of the bigger ones. Do you think that's unfair? "Gee, I do a lot of business with you guys. What are you going to do for me?" It's fine to do that when you have some leverage, but what what if your volume is so small that the people taking your orders wouldn't notice if you disappeared? So pay more, try to cover more overhead with each gross margin dollar, and have less breathing room on cash flow. It's not a strong position from which to cut prices.


Nobody except you brought in other products or changing the products to be cheaper to make. I don't see how you think any unusual pressure to do the latter comes in that isn't there already.

When retail prices go down, the value of what manufacturers make will be less. They will be able to get less money out of the same product. In order to maintain the same profitability, they will have to cut their costs. This is part of what drives down the manufacturing costs of next-generation products; it's not just because they can build it cheaper, it's because they have to.

On the contrary, instead of "forcing" GC to have a high margin between what they pay and what they get, and hence leaving them no choice but to invest it in expensive locations and marketing (the latter being of no benefit to the consumer) you now leave the consumer with more money in their pockets. That as such doesn't create pressure at the manufacturing end.

Oh, it does. It creates pressure to go back and get more of that money. From a consumer base growing more and more accustomed every month and every year to getting more for less. So you branch out and offer more products; you create product categories that didn't exist; you offer new flavors, variations, special editions. You try to get the guy who hasn't bought something in a while but would, if he saw the right thing. Maybe he doesn't peruse all the manufacturers' websites regularly. He sees an ad, in some form. Lets him know about a product he decides he likes and ends up buying and enjoying. That's pressure on the manufacturing being turned around into something positive for the consumer, and that's marketing doing something positive for the consumer.

What does the dealer do with that? He made the sale, has a happy customer, but with a lower margin than the same product used to. He's selling a lot of these things, though, but he can't afford to hire any more staff to deal with the increased floor traffic. It's more people in and out the door, more turns, more boxes, shipping keeps going up, and his wholesale cost per unit certainly hasn't gone down. Just like the customer, he'd like to find a way to pay less for the same product. With so many different lines available, the manufacturer may well feel pressure to give in on pricing negotiations. You know, get less money for the same product. I wonder if the manufacturer's parts, labor, utilities, R&D, and other costs will go down, or if he'll have to exert price pressure on down the line. We often hear about companies changing out a tiny part to save a pitifully small amount of production costs per unit. I wonder where they get ideas like that.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

Dude, nobody said anything about lowering the money from dealer to manufacturer by a single cent. Well you did, but that's something you did on your own.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

So here's my question - are they doing what Boogie does and holding their dealers accountable to one price for a new instrument? i.e. "This guitar is $1199, no matter where it's sold."

...or are they saying "We advertise this guitar at $1199, dealers can move and price from there instead of dealing with an 'artificial' MSRP for pricing" ?


Either way, good for them for getting rid of a useless number and cutting through BS.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

It certainly seems that, in the airline industry, discount airlines caused the premium airlines to have to reduce the quality of their service and become more discount oriented in order to maintain market share. I think that's what you would see happen, is if people stop believing a pedal should cost $100, which is entirely possible due to the cheap clone trend, then anyone who sells pedals that cost $100 will have to cut corners somewhere in order to win back enough customers to stay in business. That might even be what Electro Harmonix is doing as we speak, with pedals such as the East River Drive or the Soul Food. They're stupid cheap. This might also be the reason for fluctuating quality and price points in Gibsons over the years, always being in the shadow of lower priced Fenders.
 
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Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

The guitar market has changed so much in the last 20 years. There are so many new categories of customer, it's hard for manufacturers and retailers to keep up. Twenty-five years ago, I never met a 25 guitar-owning hobbyist. the general pattern, at least among my crowd at the time, in the 80s was you owned a guitar, and if you wanted something else, you traded or sold the one you had and got a new one. So the market has grown enormously. I owned one guitar for almost 20 years. Now even I have five.

Ordinarily, you'd think that change would be good for retailers. But in a way I think it has been worse for them. I remember the shops in my town would have a few Gibsons, a few fenders, maybe some Yamahas and some cheaper stuff (I'm talking pre-super strat era). They seemed to turn them over at a decent clip. Didn't have to keep a huge inventory, they'd move a little on price, throw in some strings and a setup. Maybe guitarists weren't as picky then. If you wanted to buy a Fender, you either bought the one they had or ordered the colour you wanted.

Now you've got to have multiples of every model ("You have to try a lot of x to find one that speaks to you", which competes with "But I can order it online with a 15% coupon, match that!"), you have to cover all the subgroups in the market ($700 8 strings, MIA/MIM Fenders, Gibson USA/Gibson Custom, AAAAAAAAAAA top PRSi, decent entry level stuff), you have to contend with online urban legends ($300 guitar is as good as a Suhr!). And you have to somehow ensure that the 300 guitars you have on your wall are all set up, and stay set up, optimally or you'll not only maybe lose a sale, but negatively affect the brand ("I went to GC yesterday. Pull three Gibsons off the wall. They all played like crap. Typical Gibson QC!") notwithstanding some djent teenager detuned your lovely ES 175 after visiting his probation officer.

Add that all to the price point pressure discussed above, and I really don't see how this market is sustainable.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

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Add that all to the price point pressure discussed above, and I really don't see how this market is sustainable.

Not sustainable for some, maybe. With the difference between American made and import guitars getting ever smaller, I'd rather see people buy ten different Rondos and be happy with the variety, blissfully unaware of what they're missing out on by not buying one, lonely Gibson Les Paul.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

Not sustainable for some, maybe. With the difference between American made and import guitars getting ever smaller, I'd rather see people buy ten different Rondos and be happy with the variety, blissfully unaware of what they're missing out on by not buying one, lonely Gibson Les Paul.

I think the only thing holding back some of the imports is the fact they're manufactured to a price point, so some corners are cut in material selection, hardware and finishes. the great Japanese guitars of the 70s came about because they were building guitars with top notch materials and superior workmanship, in many cases, to the US equivalents. I bet if you went to a Chinese or Indonesian factory and allowed them to source better raw materials and spend more time on some of the processes they have to speed up for cost reasons now, they'd be world beaters.

I suppose the issue would then be, given that the price would have to go up even with cheaper labour, would buyers pay $1500, say, for an Indonesian guitar, even if it was as good as, if not better, than a $2200 Gibson or whatever (as I recall, the Japanese guitars like SBGs and Ibanez artists were less expensive than US guitars, but not by the same margin as current non-Japan imports.) There are already guitars (Godin comes to mind) that build great guitars in that range and they still can't seem to get much traction as against the Fenders and Gibsons of the world.

Even now, I read a review online for a Korean-made semi-hollow, where the magazine (in the UK, I think) gave it a rave review, but at around 1400 USD, the only "con" they gave it was "pricey for an import." A guitar with those specs made in the US would probably be 3K plus. Old biases die hard.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

Dude, nobody said anything about lowering the money from dealer to manufacturer by a single cent. Well you did, but that's something you did on your own.

If you want to believe that dealers and manufacturers are going to eat all your price cuts for you out of their own generosity, more power to you.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

The constant moving of the goalposts is getting *really* annoying.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

Then talk more, and try to keep up. I think you're looking at short-term; we're looking at long-term. Just saying, "No, you're wrong; consumer prices will just be lower" doesn't cut it.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

It certainly seems that, in the airline industry, discount airlines caused the premium airlines to have to reduce the quality of their service and become more discount oriented in order to maintain market share. I think that's what you would see happen.

I totally disagree. That's how the airlines chose to respond, they didn't have to reduce quality of service. It's an excuse.

I look at Epiphone, who over the last 14 years went on a quality-improvement program with their products (which included building a new factory in China, along with staff and training). Their quality and consistency's improved: better PU's (Probuckers; many models have Gibson PU's; Epi used to have those horribe 'mudbuckers'), better tuners (Grovers, instead of those crappy no-name ones they had), full-size pots (instead of mini-pots), etc. And throughout all of this investment in materials, employees, and a new facility, they've either kept prices the same over this time period, and in many cases, lowered them. This obviously works for them financially. Epi decided to give a better product for the same money or less, and have increased their sales. They set a level for quality and got creative in the way they acheived it. There's no reason the airlines couldn't have taken the same approach.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

I totally disagree. That's how the airlines chose to respond, they didn't have to reduce quality of service. It's an excuse.

I look at Epiphone, who over the last 14 years went on a quality-improvement program with their products (which included building a new factory in China, along with staff and training). Their quality and consistency's improved: better PU's (Probuckers; many models have Gibson PU's; Epi used to have those horribe 'mudbuckers'), better tuners (Grovers, instead of those crappy no-name ones they had), full-size pots (instead of mini-pots), etc. And throughout all of this investment in materials, employees, and a new facility, they've either kept prices the same over this time period, and in many cases, lowered them. This obviously works for them financially. Epi decided to give a better product for the same money or less, and have increased their sales. They set a level for quality and got creative in the way they acheived it. There's no reason the airlines couldn't have taken the same approach.

Airlines don't sell a product, they sell a service. Short-term investing in manufacturing a product (new factory) can be cheaper in the long run. They can use better parts but they're paying less per unit for labor, so it will balance out. There is no short-term investing for services.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

Airlines don't sell a product, they sell a service. Short-term investing in manufacturing a product (new factory) can be cheaper in the long run. They can use better parts but they're paying less per unit for labor, so it will balance out. There is no short-term investing for services.


That's where you're wrong. Service is a product too. It's training, leadership, motivation, follow thru, measurement, etc. You can have quality and see that you get the most for your service money, or you can let things slide. Same principles in both products and service. Any company selling a product is selling their service and support too. It's the employees that make or break a company, and their attitudes and treatment of customers are determined by how they see their management behave. Corporate culture starts at the top and flows down to the workforce. It doesn't matter what you sell, there's always competitors that can make the same, or similar products, and some can do it cheaper than you can. Service is what makes the difference. Good employees are as important as anything else.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

I can see where you are both are coming from, but at least tax wise, a product and a service are treated differently.

In Georgia, (In general terms) products are subject to sales taxes and services are not.
 
Re: Fender Eliminates MSRP

That's where you're wrong. Service is a product too. It's training, leadership, motivation, follow thru, measurement, etc. You can have quality and see that you get the most for your service money, or you can let things slide. Same principles in both products and service. Any company selling a product is selling their service and support too. It's the employees that make or break a company, and their attitudes and treatment of customers are determined by how they see their management behave. Corporate culture starts at the top and flows down to the workforce. It doesn't matter what you sell, there's always competitors that can make the same, or similar products, and some can do it cheaper than you can. Service is what makes the difference. Good employees are as important as anything else.


No one gives a sh_t about that anymore. It's all about the bottom line, for the corporations, AND the consumers.


Airline A - We'll greet you with a smile, check on you periodically, assist you with your bags. Anything to make your flight better.

Round Trip ticket - $193

Airline B - We promise not to spit on you.

Round Trip ticket - $189



Guess who sells more tickets.
 
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