Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

[Lewguitar]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Wood matters.

But I judge a guitar by how I feel when I play it.

Is it fun to play?

Do I feel comfortable with the sound...and not wish it sounded different or that something is missing?

Does it inspire me?

Etc.

What I have found is that certain woods just make me feel the sound differently when I'm holding and playing my guitar, and I choose guitars made from those woods or wood combinations that I know from experience make me feel good and sound good to me.

Couldn't care less what some scientist thinks.

Nor do I care if the audience can't hear the difference.

I can.

And I'm after inspiration so the music I make sounds inspired and soulful.

And the audience can hear that!

 

[Mincer]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

I have been playing a long time. Enough to know without a doubt that wood makes a difference. I don't need to prove it to anyone, or come up with convoluted ways to prove it to myself.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

The only reason the anti tone wood argument holds an ounce of water is that over time, manufacturers have found some woods that all work well. Try making a guitar out of only balsa, plywood, particleboard, or bamboo and see what happens.

 

[dave74]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Just comparing the way the lows track between my full-hog and the full-maple is all I'd ever need to be convinced.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Glad my sample size for my tests entailed 1 model in 4 variations with interchangeable neck, leading to approximately 160 instruments, so I was able to do extensive inter- and intra species as well as inter- and intra model testing.

Wood matters.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

That's not how it works. So this proves nothing.

If you want to find out once and for all how different types of wood effect the tone, build a few guitars from scratch.

Here's another way. Take the humbuckers from your favorite Les Paul. Put them in a Strat. Does it sound like the Les Paul? Nope. So the tone of a guitar is more than just the pickups.

Leaning a guitar against another piece of wood and expecting it to make a radical change in tone is like putting your amp on top of a speaker cab you aren't plugged into and expecting it to sound different.

The wood on a guitar makes up a rigid frame that supports the strings. The bridge in anchored to the guitar. And the flexing of the neck changes the tone also.

The reason why different types of wood sound different is they all have different mass and densities. The body will absorb energy from the vibrating strings in a non linear manner. So a hard heavy wood like maple will absorb less and sound bright, while a soft light wood like basswood or swamp ash will have a warmer, rounder tone.

It's all physics


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[crusty philtrum]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Heck, you can get a Strat to sound like a Lester with decent pedals.

Kinda pulls the rug out from under this highly scientific breakthrough.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

One time I had some frets replaced on a guitar and the guy forget to replace the 1st fret (never used that tech again) and there was a clear difference. I think it was simply different metal touching it. The frets were brass replaced by stainless steel.

Frets are never brass. They are generally nickel silver. And yes, harder frets sound different. So does different fretboard woods. Ebony is much brighter than rosewood.

But really, if wood makes a difference so small that people debate if it actually exists, then ya might as well not worry about it. Heck, you can get a Strat to sound like a Lester with decent pedals.

But how do they sound unplugged? Not the same at all. And scale length makes a difference too.

Pedals can make a guitar sound like a keyboard too. So does that prove that keyboards sound like guitars? Lol.


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[thegaijin]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

This debate has inspired me to pickup my guitar and learn The Trees by Rush.



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[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

That's not how itIf you want to find out once and for all how different types of wood effect the tone, build a few guitars from scratch.
Here's another way. Take the humbuckers from your favorite Les Paul. Put them in a Strat. Does it sound like the Les Paul? Nope. So the tone of a guitar is more than just the pickups.

The extra 3/4" of string might have a bit to do with that as well. I have a Telegib with 24 3/4" scale and a pine body recovered from my kitchen table and it sounds pretty similar to my mahogany SG stock from Gibson.

The differences in tone are reverse from what the whole tonewood argument would dictate. Both have a A8 Custom in the bridge and pots measuring within 2% of 500k. The only major difference is the strings on the SG are nickel wound and the Telegib is pure nickel. And what do you know, the nickel wound guitar was brighter.

But we can have an agreement. If you let wood not have an affect on my tone, I'll let it have an affect on your tone. And if I ever end up playing one of your guitars, wood won't make a difference. If you ever end up playing one of mine, wood will make a difference.

Agreed?

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

The extra 3/4" of string might have a bit to do with that as well. I have a Telegib with 24 3/4" scale and a pine body recovered from my kitchen table and it sounds pretty similar to my mahogany SG stock from Gibson.

The differences in tone are reverse from what the whole tonewood argument would dictate. Both have a A8 Custom in the bridge and pots measuring within 2% of 500k. The only major difference is the strings on the SG are nickel wound and the Telegib is pure nickel. And what do you know, the nickel wound guitar was brighter.

But we can have an agreement. If you let wood not have an affect on my tone, I'll let it have an affect on your tone. And if I ever end up playing one of your guitars, wood won't make a difference. If you ever end up playing one of mine, wood will make a difference.

Agreed?

No..

If you can do this experiment and still believe tonewood makes a difference, that is your problem. But just remember, denial is the first step on the road to acceptance.

All due respect but the premise is utter nonsense. Scott Grove tried to make the same correlation by touching the guitar to the wall or a table or something. He's like "see it's louder but the plugged in tone didn't change". It's asinine. Touching the guitar to something has absolutely no similarity to actually replacing the body wood (which is under tension) with another piece of wood.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Frets are never brass. They are generally nickel silver. And yes, harder frets sound different. So does different fretboard woods. Ebony is much brighter than rosewood.

But how do they sound unplugged? Not the same at all. And scale length makes a difference too.

Pedals can make a guitar sound like a keyboard too. So does that prove that keyboards sound like guitars? Lol.

First off, brass frets do exist. Look here if you don't believe me:

https://www.ebay.com/i/391751510809...3D711-117182-37290-0%26rvr_id%3D1277637547275

Secondly, if you read my opening post, they do in fact sound different unplugged. Not very useful information as most people don't play unplugged, but I was just using to demonstrate that not every difference in the accoustic sound translate into the electric tone.

And finally, since most people fail to understand the premise of my opening post, the added piece of wood will absorb energy from the vibrating strings in a non linear manner, even though it is not glued or bolted onto the body. If you want me to, I can buy a cheap beater guitar and drill the piece of wood to the back of guitar at the same tightness as a bolt on neck and then repeat the experiment. If their is anything wrong with these methods, please be a lamb and give a justification as to why.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

All due respect but the premise is utter nonsense. Scott Grove tried to make the same correlation by touching the guitar to the wall or a table or something. He's like "see it's louder but the plugged in tone didn't change". It's asinine. Touching the guitar to something has absolutely no similarity to actually replacing the body wood (which is under tension) with another piece of wood.

The tension of the wood doesn't matter. As long as the wood is an outlet for vibrations from the strings, it must either bleed off certain frequencies or not. The whole argument over tonewood is whether or not this is in fact happening.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

First off, brass frets do exist. Look here if you don't believe me:

No quality guitars use brass frets. It's too soft.

Secondly, if you read my opening post, they do in fact sound different unplugged. Not very useful information as most people don't play unplugged, but I was just using to demonstrate that not every difference in the accoustic sound translate into the electric tone.

It absolutely translates into an electric sound as long as the guitar's signal is not too distorted. At that point you no longer hear the guitars tone for what it is.

You can't say you can't hear the difference between an SG and a Les Paul, right? Or a Strat and a Les Paul?

[/quote]And finally, since most people fail to understand the premise of my opening post, the added piece of wood will absorb energy from the vibrating strings in a non linear manner, even though it is not glued or bolted onto the body. If you want me to, I can buy a cheap beater guitar and drill the piece off wood to the back of guitar at the same tightness as a bolt on neck and then repeat the experiment. If their is anything wrong with these methods, please be a lamb and give a justification as to why.[/QUOTE]

As I said your idea is flawed. The piece of wood resting against the body will have a negligible effect at best.

There's not a single luthier that will agree with you. That's because our experience shows very much the opposite.

Try building some guitars. Heck, even using bolt on parts you can hear that a hard ash body sounds different from a lighter mahogany body.


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[DavidRavenMoon]

Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

No quality guitars use brass frets. It's too soft.


It absolutely translates into an electric sound as long as the guitar's signal is not too distorted. At that point you no longer hear the guitars tone for what it is.

You can't say you can't hear the difference between an SG and a Les Paul, right? Or a Strat and a Les Paul?

And finally, since most people fail to understand the premise of my opening post, the added piece of wood will absorb energy from the vibrating strings in a non linear manner, even though it is not glued or bolted onto the body. If you want me to, I can buy a cheap beater guitar and drill the piece off wood to the back of guitar at the same tightness as a bolt on neck and then repeat the experiment. If their is anything wrong with these methods, please be a lamb and give a justification as to why.

As I said your idea is flawed. The piece of wood resting against the body will have a negligible effect at best.

There's not a single luthier that will agree with you. That's because our experience shows very much the opposite.

Try building some guitars. Heck, even using bolt on parts you can hear that a hard ash body sounds different from a lighter mahogany body.


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[Lewguitar]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

That's really the truth.

Luthiers know different woods create slightly different sounds in a solid body guitar.

It's also true that not all mahogany Strats sound the same. Nor do two alder bodied or two ash bodied Strats sound the same.

That's why it's always best to try out a few examples of any guitar in person and pick the one that speaks to you.

It's hard to predict with 100% accuracy what any guitar is going to sound like before it's completed.

But luthiers know that within a certain range, a mahogany body will sound different from a maple or ash or alder body.

And they know that from experience...not because they read it somewhere.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

No quality guitars use brass frets. It's too soft.


It absolutely translates into an electric sound as long as the guitar's signal is not too distorted. At that point you no longer hear the guitars tone for what it is.

You can't say you can't hear the difference between an SG and a Les Paul, right? Or a Strat and a Les Paul?

That is in fact why I switched them out. They wore out within a year.

And of course I hear the difference between a Les Paul and an SG. I can hear the difference between two Les Pauls. In the land of magnet swaps, pickup swaps, 100 different types of strings, thousands of pedals coloring your signal, and then a thousand more amplifiers, the type of wood in a guitar is essentially pointless. Also, ever notice that the wood that just so happens to be more musical is farmed by Mayan virgins in some exotic rain forest? Or just the opposite, Fender mythical tonewoods just happened to be what he had on hand or was easily available. In the olden days companies bought wood that would increase their profit margins. Either wood that would allow them to market their products as elite, or wood they could sell at a price to fit the consumer budget.

And sorry for the long post, but if a piece of wood pressed against the back of a guitar makes a day and night difference unplugged (as you said, it translates) why doesn't it make a lick of difference plugged in direct to the amp? Of the 3 luthiers I frequent, none of them believe in tonewood. And one of those guys has been making guitars for 50 years since he was twenty!

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Just a quick poll. All of you seem to have come across your opinion through your own personal experience, so I won't bother asking that. But how many of you have attempted to replicate my personal experience. Because if wood pressed against the back of a guitar makes a difference acoustically, but not electrically; but wood built into the guitar makes a difference both electrically and acoustically, either there some different effect at play or physics isn't working today. Please help he find out which.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

First off, brass frets do exist.

Yes, they're designed to be used in the cheapest nylon-stringed instruments in the market.

I should know, my uncle was the head of the production of 5,000 a month entry-level and chlidren-sized spanish guitars factory, targeting the Argentinian and southamerican market in the late '60s, early '70s.

HTH,

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Another flaw in your test.....how do you know your amp is producing the frequencies that are being affected acoustically????